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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:35 am 
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Forum Time Trialer
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:22 pm
Posts: 227
Location: redwood city, california
I don't think is neseasary to contact anyone, all the confusion is due to uninformed people giving their opinion bases on what they heard happend to a friend of a friend the other day.
I am currently renting one car that is legal with small cage and Brian just build 2 of them.
That's enough for me that rules are very clear, as well as the need for a small cage on the 03-04.


laze1 wrote:
Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue.

"Clifton Winkleman" <clifton@drivenasa.com>

Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120”

15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver.
Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll
cage is:
Up


.
2501 - 3000 lbs
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for
reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.

3001 - 4000 lbs
1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 7:58 am 
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Forum Hot Lapper
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Joined: Thu Jun 02, 2011 5:43 am
Posts: 119
Location: Raleigh, NC
If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2013 8:38 am 
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Joined: Fri Sep 12, 2003 2:49 pm
Posts: 491
Location: Scotts Valley, CA
dcazin wrote:
If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated.


Some things maybe everyone doesn't do for a club car.

- I used .095 cage materiel, if you used .120 and wonder why your car is not light enough, consider the weight of the cage, I also weighed every piece of the cage as I added it to make sure I would be good.
- Dry ice removal of ALL the sound deadening on the floor of the car, this stuff adds up to at least 10 lbs.
- I removed my heater core and all associated hardware, yes I won't have a defroster but a properly sealed firewall and some rain-x anti fog takes care of that for the most part, also I live in CA :)
- Exhaust! Exhaust weight is huge! I built a custom single exit 3" with Borla mufflers.

Its the little things that add up when building a racecar. If one thing weighs 2.5 lbs so you say "no big deal", if there are 10 of those little things thats 25 lbs! Yes I checked my math on that ;).

My second car will be for sale when it is done for a shameless plug on this thread.

_________________
-Brian Lock
NASA NorCal ST/SU Group Leader
Valkyrie Autosport, Ltd.
http://www.valkyrieas.com


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:32 pm 
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Forum Time Trialer
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:22 pm
Posts: 227
Location: redwood city, california
also would be nice to hear the story of the guy that failed tech, but from the guy himself! and what his current status is!


B Esquire wrote:
dcazin wrote:
If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated.


Some things maybe everyone doesn't do for a club car.

- I used .095 cage materiel, if you used .120 and wonder why your car is not light enough, consider the weight of the cage, I also weighed every piece of the cage as I added it to make sure I would be good.
- Dry ice removal of ALL the sound deadening on the floor of the car, this stuff adds up to at least 10 lbs.
- I removed my heater core and all associated hardware, yes I won't have a defroster but a properly sealed firewall and some rain-x anti fog takes care of that for the most part, also I live in CA :)
- Exhaust! Exhaust weight is huge! I built a custom single exit 3" with Borla mufflers.

Its the little things that add up when building a racecar. If one thing weighs 2.5 lbs so you say "no big deal", if there are 10 of those little things thats 25 lbs! Yes I checked my math on that ;).

My second car will be for sale when it is done for a shameless plug on this thread.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:54 am 
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Forum Hot Lapper
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Joined: Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:16 am
Posts: 67
Your assumption as to opinions being based on rumor is misinformed.... some of us are very familiar with specific situations - hence our advice.

What you do is up to you... no one can force you to accept wisdom. Only trying to help. :)

If you pass inspection, great! If you don't, you'll now have no reason to complain.

esr wrote:
I don't think is neseasary to contact anyone, all the confusion is due to uninformed people giving their opinion bases on what they heard happend to a friend of a friend the other day.
I am currently renting one car that is legal with small cage and Brian just build 2 of them.
That's enough for me that rules are very clear, as well as the need for a small cage on the 03-04.


laze1 wrote:
Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue.

"Clifton Winkleman" <clifton@drivenasa.com>

Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120”

15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver.
Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll
cage is:
Up


.
2501 - 3000 lbs
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for
reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.

3001 - 4000 lbs
1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:16 pm 
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Forum Time Trialer
Forum Time Trialer

Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:22 pm
Posts: 227
Location: redwood city, california
I see your intentions are good.
it is very appreciated.
Thank you very much



FastNotFurious wrote:
Your assumption as to opinions being based on rumor is misinformed.... some of us are very familiar with specific situations - hence our advice.

What you do is up to you... no one can force you to accept wisdom. Only trying to help. :)

If you pass inspection, great! If you don't, you'll now have no reason to complain.

esr wrote:
I don't think is neseasary to contact anyone, all the confusion is due to uninformed people giving their opinion bases on what they heard happend to a friend of a friend the other day.
I am currently renting one car that is legal with small cage and Brian just build 2 of them.
That's enough for me that rules are very clear, as well as the need for a small cage on the 03-04.


laze1 wrote:
Guys, I suggest you contact Clifton Winkleman the NASA Spec Z National Director on this issue.

"Clifton Winkleman" <clifton@drivenasa.com>

Based on a recent case...the .095 on a DE engine Spec Z FAILED NASA TECH and a log book was not issued!!!!! Thus I STRONGLY recommend that you go with 1.750” x .120”

15.6.18 Roll Cage Tubing Sizes
For the purposes of determining roll bar tubing sizes, vehicle weight is as raced, but without fuel and driver.
Note: There is an allowance of minus 0.010 inches on all tubing thicknesses. Minimum tubing size for the roll
cage is:
Up


.
2501 - 3000 lbs
1.500” x 0.120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.095” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
1.750” x 0.120” ERW* (No issuance of log books for cars with ERW cages) *Note- Specifications listed only for
reference for inspection of grandfathered vehicles.

3001 - 4000 lbs
1.750” x .120” Seamless Alloy (4130), Seamless mild steel (CDS Mechanical) or DOM
No ERW allowed.


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2013 9:13 am 
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Forum Hot Lapper
Forum Hot Lapper

Joined: Wed Jan 27, 2010 3:04 pm
Posts: 105
dcazin wrote:
If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated.


Send me your email, I'll send you my 2012 and 2013 tech inspection where all was weighed and measured. Do as Brian said, and continue to remove things. I also have a super lightweight single exhaust. Stillen? Bassani? All pigs. Also, what wheels did you have on at the time?

B Esquire wrote:
My cars are built the letter of the law, and they are 2900 lbs dry. Easily within the rules for .095. Why would you add all that extra weight to your car by going .120?


THIS

B Esquire wrote:
dcazin wrote:
If anyone would care to share how they were able to shed their 03-04's down to sub 3k - it would be greatly appreciated.


Some things maybe everyone doesn't do for a club car.

- I used .095 cage materiel, if you used .120 and wonder why your car is not light enough, consider the weight of the cage, I also weighed every piece of the cage as I added it to make sure I would be good.
- Dry ice removal of ALL the sound deadening on the floor of the car, this stuff adds up to at least 10 lbs.
- I removed my heater core and all associated hardware, yes I won't have a defroster but a properly sealed firewall and some rain-x anti fog takes care of that for the most part, also I live in CA :)
- Exhaust! Exhaust weight is huge! I built a custom single exit 3" with Borla mufflers.

Its the little things that add up when building a racecar. If one thing weighs 2.5 lbs so you say "no big deal", if there are 10 of those little things thats 25 lbs! Yes I checked my math on that ;).

My second car will be for sale when it is done for a shameless plug on this thread.


Couldn't agree more.

FastNotFurious wrote:
Since you can be VERY close to the weight limit for .095 and based on some other cars and tech situations, best to go with .120 IMHO

Since the Spec Z rules state min weight is 3175 (for an '03) at race end (incl fuel resrve & driver) and the CCR states .120 is to be used for cars in the 3001lb to 4000 lb range, you're right on the edge assuming you can get to minimum weight.

Based on the Spec Z rules restrictions it is very hard to get to min weight AND really conform to the rules (no unnecessary interior/parts removal and only spec parts) and have all your safety equipment in. I'm always interested to see anyone who has managed it and how they got there.

You really don't want to find yourself at inspection having built your cage with .095 and find it weighs, for example, 3050 lbs dry... and fail tech.

Not worth the risk in my view - but I know most of us hoped we could get the cars below 3000 lb but I haven't seen anyone do it AND be in strict adherence to the rules - but I also haven't seen everything ;)

Just my view. Its only a concern since the defined min weight is so close to the cage tubing limit weight.


A touch heavier than Brian's cars, my car was 2940 on the scales - ready-to-race with harness, race seat, fire extinguisher, nets, 1/4 tank gas, etc., without driver - after the .095" cage was installed. As Brian said, the .095 cage itself is lighter than the .120 cage. Take 2940, add 170# driver and a tank of gas, and we are over 3200# to meet the (raised) spec weight. Assuming they don't continue the stupidity and raise the spec weight again, this is an acceptable solution. My car was tech'd for the class in 2012 and 2013.

The sad thing is that we end up building a car around the driver. Meaning, if we could gut the car down to 2800#, it would be illegal for a 170# driver yet legal for a 270# driver. Just seems silly to me. Lastly, does the SCCA tech loophole still exist? Meaning, get the annual done by SCCA (.095 cage is allowed), then bring SCCA annual tech to NASA for annual NASA tech?


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2013 11:39 am 
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Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:05 am
Posts: 19
How many feet of tubing is necessary to build a legal cage?


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:10 am 
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Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 7:53 am
Posts: 32
Location: Covington, LA
David K wrote:
How many feet of tubing is necessary to build a legal cage?


I just built a cage for our 07' Nismo and we used 66' of 1 3/4 X .120 wall. You can get away with 50-60 but we intentionally overbuilt our cage since the HR's get a huge weight penalty.

Here is the link to the build.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.126551897531111.1073741835.111486809037620&type=1&l=d6d2616f01

Thanks,

Jay
Team Pelle Motorsports


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 Post subject: Re: Roll Cage Question
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2005 6:28 pm
Posts: 12738
Location: Houston, TX
depends on how many and what kind of mistakes you make ;)

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2012 C6Z06
2010 RX8 R3


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