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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 6:55 am 
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civicek wrote:
ok, "dude", besides a swap and a few minor mods, tell me what is the huge difference between them, and again if you read my post I said "basically". You can take a H4 CRX single cam vtec, change the cams and intake and voila you have a H2 car. So BASICALLY is the same car and you didn't even need a swap. That's what I meant by "basically", dude.

That's one way to interpret the rules. Another way is to look at H4 and H2 seperately. For instance: If I am building an H4 car, I am going to pick which chassis I believe is best based on which engine I have to use. If I am building an H2 car, I am NOT going to take an H4 car and change a few mods to make it legal for H2. Instead, I would choose which engine and chassis combo I believe would be best and build it to the maximum extent of the rules.

The way you present it is someone that is choosing to run a mid-pack H2 car. The way I present it is someone that wants to run up front in H2, regardless of cost. That, unfortunately, is racing.

Once again...

ILIKETODRIVE wrote:
In HC, if I don't build it to the max of the rules that is my own fault. They are outlined for me to follow, depending on which engine/chassis I choose.

If I choose to build a budget mid-pack car I know what to expect out of the car. I also know what to expect out of myself. I also know what the limits of the rules are. Therefore, I should not complain and tell everybody else to lower their whp to let me catch up.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 7:39 am 
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ILIKETODRIVE wrote:
If I choose to build a budget mid-pack car I know what to expect out of the car. I also know what to expect out of myself. I also know what the limits of the rules are. Therefore, I should not complain and tell everybody else to lower their whp to let me catch up.

You have a very valid and noted point which has been stated before by a few others in the private section. However, if you had this "mid-pack" car and it was built to the legal rules limit (which happened to meet the cap), would you not think that the rule committee made a small mistake in judgement of classing a particular setup while others uncapped have a larger HP to weight advantage? Or is it the fault of the person who chose that particular set-up, for choosing a set-up that has a dis-advantage uncapped? Some users do not like to use B series or some do not choose to use K series and so on, it would not be politically correct to force a racer to use a particular package if that is not what what is available to them, not what they want or doesn't make them happy swapping in. To fix this problem nationally HC made the cap, and recently So Cal has created the regional cap for So Cal only. When capped just about every engine and chassis combo has a pretty level playing field and I personally think it will be better for competition and create a tighter pack. To add, the cap regionally is a good thing if it is designated for the Nats as well, since one doesn't have to gamble and dial in a setup the week before the nats, they have all season to dial it in since it is a national requirement and thus should have a better head start on competition at the nationals who are chasing the tune or setup.

If your region had the cap instilled I can see you guys getting bothered by the decision, however this does not apply to your region and I don't quite understand why many in your region are getting so upset at a decision made for a completely separate region. If you want to crossover to So Cal, you will have an advantage by exceeding the cap, is that not something you want? Most of the racers in your region got lapped or nearly by So Cal's best, now you will have a better chance to run closer to the front with your HP advantage. Now if HP and all out open rules is what one wishes to have then please revive H1 from the morgue as I hope to see it as popular as H2 one day again because I like H1 more than H2, but if it is just a HP advantage one wants in a particular class then one must not like close and competitive racing.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:05 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:25 am 
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ILIKETODRIVE wrote:
civicek wrote:
ok, "dude", besides a swap and a few minor mods, tell me what is the huge difference between them, and again if you read my post I said "basically". You can take a H4 CRX single cam vtec, change the cams and intake and voila you have a H2 car. So BASICALLY is the same car and you didn't even need a swap. That's what I meant by "basically", dude.

That's one way to interpret the rules. Another way is to look at H4 and H2 seperately. For instance: If I am building an H4 car, I am going to pick which chassis I believe is best based on which engine I have to use. If I am building an H2 car, I am NOT going to take an H4 car and change a few mods to make it legal for H2. Instead, I would choose which engine and chassis combo I believe would be best and build it to the maximum extent of the rules.

The way you present it is someone that is choosing to run a mid-pack H2 car. The way I present it is someone that wants to run up front in H2, regardless of cost. That, unfortunately, is racing.

Once again...

ILIKETODRIVE wrote:
In HC, if I don't build it to the max of the rules that is my own fault. They are outlined for me to follow, depending on which engine/chassis I choose.

If I choose to build a budget mid-pack car I know what to expect out of the car. I also know what to expect out of myself. I also know what the limits of the rules are. Therefore, I should not complain and tell everybody else to lower their whp to let me catch up.


Of course you have to look at it separate, that is why they are two different classes. Of course if you want to build a H2 car you will try to choose which combo you think should be the best. But if you already have a H4 car and you want to go H2 then you should be able to do that too.
H2 is not and should not be a Jr. H1, There is way more differences between H1 and H2 than there is between H2 and H4 and the way I see it you want to build a legal H1 car for H2.
Everybody is fixiated in the word "horsepower", and horsepower doesn't equal racing, there is way more variables than just horsepower.
I still don't understand how if we have a cap we are going to spend more money, I don't see it sorry.
I'm going to give you an example with no names and places so nobody feels like the shoe fits but here it is. I went to this event where there was a late model civic SI running what must be a K20a2 engine, and then there was a well developed legal and max to the rules crx. There was absolutely no comparison between the two cars. I don't know if it was driver or car but this is a comentary I heard from somebody close to the SI " that crx has to be illegal".
So now the car that is well developed and I know for sure is legal was considered illegal, just because the other car got passed like he was standing still.
I don't think that would have happened with a cap.
I'm not trying to convince anybody , we are going to try here and see what happens, I might even have to bring a truck load of cement bags to start weighing down some cars, fill the trunk with bags to the rules :D .
Anyway we will see what happens in April.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:38 am 
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civicek wrote:
Of course you have to look at it separate, that is why they are two different classes. Of course if you want to build a H2 car you will try to choose which combo you think should be the best. But if you already have a H4 car and you want to go H2 then you should be able to do that too.

Sure, you could do that...but the car would be outclassed by a built to the rules H2 car. Examples: You're going to keep the stock brakes that you are required to have in H4? You're going to keep the stock (for that engine) gear ratios that you are required to have in H4? You're just going to drop in a longblock and say, "I should be able to keep up with these H2 cars!" Not gonna happen.

What about someone running a B18B-powered Integra in H4? Just dump 250lbs and you're all set for H2? Yeah, not.

This is why I would rather convert my PTE car to an H4 car. All I have to do is swap in LS 1-5 gears and ballast up. If I want to COMPETE in H2 and not just run for fun as a back of the pack car, I would have to get another swap and parts allowed within the rules ($$$) or buy a whole bunch of parts allowed within the rules ($$). This has nothing to do with the whp cap BUT it does have to do with the fact that H4 and H2 are not just seperated by swaps...which kind of does have something to do with the whp cap.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2012 11:42 am 
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ILIKETODRIVE wrote:

What about someone running a B18B-powered Integra in H4? Just dump 250lbs and you're all set for H2? Yeah, not.
...which kind of does have something to do with the whp cap.

I like you! You have very valid points in most of your posts and though it side tracks from the thread topic, it is very well related to the caps, and a few of those points have been brought up by others in the forum before. Thus this topic just about requires it's own thread as not to interfere with the So Cal cap ruling topic we are in.

The following is just my opinion in an adult discussion and I mean no offense to anyone here including the RC. I do wonder what racers think of this -

Something that has not been mentioned too much, and ILIKETODRIVE brought that up in my mind, is the fact for some to convert class to class. For me H1 to H2 is so easy, I just swap my engine and rims and voila! However H4 to H2, you have to drop in alternative cams, or x engine, fancy shocks and big brakes to be competitive in H2. This is in fact the case and an H4 racer here in so cal witnessed that himself, he added a camshaft and milled head to his CRX and thought it would be fine. It was fast but not reliable. Now he runs a whole new engine and brake setup. What I have personally noticed is the cars that are allowed aftermarket manifolds and alternative camshafts and such and such, are the very cars that exceed the cap by a good amount. Now if engine A was not allowed alternative cams and Engine B was not allowed intake manifolds they would very well be at or near the cap as is the case with the H2 engine I use the K20A3, no cams or intake allowed, it reaches the cap perfectly when you add bolt-ons and mill the head and boo-ya that's that. Not a problem there and the RC nailed it. So I would imagine if other engines were compensated by weight and not camshafts and certain parts, that it would be just about the same as having a cap without the label of "cap". This would be the "H4 with a swap" that some here are discussing and that would be the way H2 should be so it is easier for H4 to convert and so on. But building a Jr H1 class and now capping it to quell the unhappiness amongst certain drivers, shows that some of the aftermarket parts just may be a mistake. What this mistake should do in a positive way however is encourage classes like H4 and H1 to grow instead of everyone gunning to be in H2 and the other classes dying away, but it has not. Though this is just a theory and I can not say this is the way the committee thinks when the rules are made.
Over the last few years I have built several competitors engines, be it a B or K or what not. I have taken them to the dyno be it dynapack etc. and have a stack of data and numbers accumulated on dynojets since the 90s way before I ran Honda Challenge to back up my theory and this is why I eagerly support the cap because it levels things out much much easier than changing all of the current rules to remove these aftermarket parts and adjust the weights. It also eliminates the need for more staff like a technical builder or expert to breakdown engines to examine parts and to dyno, which would be very neat to have, but not ideally in the budget aspect for NASA regions. So unless there is a unanimous agreement amongst the racers and the RC and enough data submitted to over rule the cap, the next best thing is to cap the class and limit these issues that are controversial. Thus I hope the cap encourages H4 and H1 to grow with others wanting something different than H2 and this would overall be a growth for all classes which is the true goal here.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2012 12:05 am 
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yep :mrgreen:

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 5:20 pm 
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something else to think about in the H4 to H2 thinking, is that a motor built to the extent of the H4 rules will be illegal when bumping up to H2 as the .040" over allowance for H3-H5 is not allowed for H2. so the idea that said Integra with a B18B1 could just drop 250lbs and race in H2 is not a legitimate option if the motor in H4 trim is built to the limit of the rules.

Just something else to think about it.

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Sam

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 6:41 pm 
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[code][/code]
joe barile wrote:
@civicek....Dude, I don't know which H4 rules you have or have not read. No way is H2 "basically H4 with a swap". Maybe that is what it was supposed to be way back when and maybe that is how it should be now but H4 does not allow lexan, carbon fiber hood, cams,etc. Some cars in H4 are forced by the rules to race with smaller brake packages than their competitors who have the same motor and weight. Ask me how I know.
civicek wrote:
ok, "dude", besides a swap and a few minor mods, tell me what is the huge difference between them, and again if you read my post I said "basically". You can take a H4 CRX single cam vtec, change the cams and intake and voila you have a H2 car. So BASICALLY is the same car and you didn't even need a swap. That's what I meant by "basically", dude.

Dude, I MIGHT be off topic, but:
http://youtu.be/aSW5F9LQgVw
or
http://youtu.be/77v_Q0mhbZU

Sorry dude... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 7:43 pm 
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Dude that's funny.

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