nasaforums.com

Official Forums of the National Auto Sport Association
It is currently Fri Nov 28, 2014 9:00 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:36 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:31 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
marshallmosty wrote:
Guys,
What we were going for is you show up for a race weekend (or season) with a dyno sheet which puts you at a particular P/W. If you want to change the tune during the weekend and manipulate the ABS, you will need to dyno at the track. No dyno, no retune.

As many chips have multiple settings for different tunes, there needs to be the new dyno and not just, "Hey, setting one is no ABS and setting 2 is FR ABS".

We were trying to eliminate the situation that Steve brought up regarding "waiting for rain".



Doesn't say that in the rules ? what difference does it make what my dyno to weight says ? it's still power to weight post race.

I've rolled over the scales before with less then my weight on the window and on my sheet . I was sent to the dyno and made less hp then my sheet said as well that matched my weight that said day. was still legal.

You guys opened a big ass can with all this power to weight changes and crap in my opinion. Race directors hardly check crap before . I can't wait to see what it looks like when 12 ai cars are sitting post race and you guys are trying to figure out who is what and what is who.

_________________
Spec Iron Mustang Rentals
www.poemotorsports.com
Cincinnati Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 5:48 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:05 am
Posts: 422
Location: Denton, TX
Steve,
You can only have one windshield sticker. It's either marked with your minimum weight for whatever tier you have chosen, based on your HP/TQ. Your dyno sheet on file with your director should match the sticker.

I agree that if you are lighter than your sticker, and a dyno is available, that you can go re-cert to your post-weight weight.

_________________
Marshall Mosty
AIX/AI/SI/CMC Texas Regional Director
2011 NASA-TX American Iron Champ
AI #67


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:07 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:31 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
In all my years of being around this I have yet to see a car get dq'd because he didn't match his sticker on the window.

He may have been light but made up for it on the dyno with less hp. Course I can see your point if you don't have a dyno but for us "thankfully" Dave Royce does his best to have a dyno at the track.

regardless, If my power to weight post race doesn't match my dyno sheet or sticker on my window but I dyno the power to weight that I should be then I'm still legal.

Heck, I have been to some regions that don't even set up scales ? Have figured that one out just yet ? :shock:

_________________
Spec Iron Mustang Rentals
www.poemotorsports.com
Cincinnati Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:20 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:31 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
stevepoe wrote:
In all my years of being around this I have yet to see a car get dq'd because he didn't match his sticker on the window.

He may have been light but made up for it on the dyno with less hp. Course I can see your point if you don't have a dyno but for us "thankfully" Dave Royce does his best to have a dyno at the track.

regardless, If my power to weight post race doesn't match my dyno sheet or sticker on my window but I dyno the power to weight that I should be then I'm still legal.

Heck, I have been to some regions that don't even set up scales ? Have figured that one out just yet ? :shock:


I'm not trying to give you a hard time Marshall but your rules say nothing in my mind of why I can't do what I'm wanting to do with the rain and tune situation. If I missed it can you please point me to the rules section that would clarify this ? I know of a few others that have this very same idea.

_________________
Spec Iron Mustang Rentals
www.poemotorsports.com
Cincinnati Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:36 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 452
Location: Outside STL
marshallmosty wrote:
We were trying to eliminate the situation that Steve brought up regarding "waiting for rain".

That may be what you were trying to do, but that's not how the new rules read. Nothing I saw written that doesn't stop someone from re-tuning and handing a new dyno sheet to their director for a new windshield sticker.

D Algozine wrote:
If "tunes" are changed at the track. How can it be verified what tune is in a car at any given time, if it doesn't go on the rollers after each qual or race, or what if a dyno isn't present that weekend?

Great point. Kind of makes you wonder why so many track records were broken this year, but mostly at tracks that didn't have a dyno... Hmmm.

j

_________________
Jim-
Team UBR
AI- Mustang #75
AI- Mustang #76
SM- Miata #7.7
http://www.facebook.com/TeamUBR


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 6:40 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:31 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
tune or a different carb jet or a twist of the dist. will result in the same situation.

_________________
Spec Iron Mustang Rentals
www.poemotorsports.com
Cincinnati Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:34 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue May 02, 2006 9:05 am
Posts: 422
Location: Denton, TX
Dave,
At times, we will seal the hood of someone who "may" be over and have them report to a dyno after the weekend is over. I understand you tuning for the situation. I understand what the rules "say". The intent was to not have folks flip flopping depending on weather, but I see no way to police that with the current set of rules.

I know you aren't knocking me personally. I'm just the one who opened my mouth... No worries. I have thick skin (however, I did cry a little on my way to work) :)

I've thought the same thing you have regarding pulling ABS for certain tracks/situations.

_________________
Marshall Mosty
AIX/AI/SI/CMC Texas Regional Director
2011 NASA-TX American Iron Champ
AI #67


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:43 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:22 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: Crown Point IN
stevepoe wrote:
tune or a different carb jet or a twist of the dist. will result in the same situation.


Steve,
My opinion. I understand what your saying, but per the rules it is illegal. If someone changes a setting, they are supposed to re-dyno. The fact that you/we think that changes have been made in the past illegaly and they got away with it, doesn't make it legal now. Heres the way it reads:
....."(Note that one certification can be valid for an entire season provided that no performance modifications are performed to the car)."
Technically anything to do with the engine would be considered a performance modifacation, inlcuding spark plug, wires, air filter, etc.. But I think we should adhere to the intent of the rule, which I have always assumed meant any deliberate change that would knowingly alter performance, such as distributor tweak, carb jet, re-tune computer, modify air intake, etc...

This is the inherent difficulty of allowing more and more technology into the series. It's very difficult to police. NASA doesn't have the resourses. Several guys have voiced there opinion about moving forward with technology, but how do you police it all? So many racers have used the term, "lets just race". What does that mean? How about K.I.S.S., then we can "just race", and not have to deal with so much BS. It's only going to get more complicated in the future.
The tail is wagging the dog. Nearly every single AI car gets stripped to a shell and then built back up to a race car. Why is so important to attempt to keep up with manufacturers (or AI's new definition of manufactureres)? I understand certain major components from production cars need to be considered, but not everything.
Marshall, I appreciate your input on this forum and the explanations that you are providing. I assume your last post that was addressed to me (Dave) was meant for Steve. But regardless, I don't think any of us should make you the scapegoat for attempting to give us all the perspective of the directors. Very difficult job and typically thankless. But thanks.

_________________
Dave Algozine
#12 CMC Midwest


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 8:47 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 5:31 am
Posts: 1284
Location: Cincinnati Ohio
D Algozine wrote:
stevepoe wrote:
tune or a different carb jet or a twist of the dist. will result in the same situation.


Steve,
My opinion. I understand what your saying, but per the rules it is illegal. If someone changes a setting, they are supposed to re-dyno. The fact that you/we think that changes have been made in the past illegaly and they got away with it, doesn't make it legal now. Heres the way it reads:
....."(Note that one certification can be valid for an entire season provided that no performance modifications are performed to the car)."
Technically anything to do with the engine would be considered a performance modifacation, inlcuding spark plug, wires, air filter, etc.. But I think we should adhere to the intent of the rule, which I have always assumed meant any deliberate change that would knowingly alter performance, such as distributor tweak, carb jet, re-tune computer, modify air intake, etc...

This is the inherent difficulty of allowing more and more technology into the series. It's very difficult to police. NASA doesn't have the resourses. Several guys have voiced there opinion about moving forward with technology, but how do you police it all? So many racers have used the term, "lets just race". What does that mean? How about K.I.S.S., then we can "just race", and not have to deal with so much BS. It's only going to get more complicated in the future.
The tail is wagging the dog. Nearly every single AI car gets stripped to a shell and then built back up to a race car. Why is so important to attempt to keep up with manufacturers (or AI's new definition of manufactureres)? I understand certain major components from production cars need to be considered, but not everything.
Marshall, I appreciate your input on this forum and the explanations that you are providing. I assume your last post that was addressed to me (Dave) was meant for Steve. But regardless, I don't think any of us should make you the scapegoat for attempting to give us all the perspective of the directors. Very difficult job and typically thankless. But thanks.



I have two dyno sheets . one for 9.5 and one for 9.1........

_________________
Spec Iron Mustang Rentals
www.poemotorsports.com
Cincinnati Ohio


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:01 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 452
Location: Outside STL
marshallmosty wrote:
I know you aren't knocking me personally. I'm just the one who opened my mouth... No worries. I have thick skin (however, I did cry a little on my way to work) :)

Marshall,

I was actually the one knocking the rules, Dave gets a pass... this time :lol:

And I wasn't knocking you at all, just the rules as written, Something gets written, but there is an underlying "intent". This has happened several times the last couple of years. And this is where it gets wierd. Rules get published, we build/alter/modify to those rules and then at some event are told that everything you did meets the rule as written, but our "intent" was actually something else, therefore you're illegal and have to change it.

If there is an "intent", then write the rule that way. Or at least include clarification to give us some guidance. Like, "HP/Tq is based on the formula, abs must be unplugged if present to run 'non-abs' HP, only one dyno sheet may be submitted per weekend". Or include something about tech where cars are checked after a race to see if the plug is on or not. There are ways to write intent into rules. I write health care policy for a huge teaching institution. Or ask any lawyer.

j

_________________
Jim-
Team UBR
AI- Mustang #75
AI- Mustang #76
SM- Miata #7.7
http://www.facebook.com/TeamUBR


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 69 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group