nasaforums.com

Official Forums of the National Auto Sport Association
It is currently Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:36 am

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:16 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Lake Wylie, SC
braknl8 wrote:
What is a front-running TR bringing these days?

While a simple & straight forward question, not a very simple & straight forward answer.

Answer = It depends...

A front runner is gonna need a 'Busa motor in it these days. The only ones that I know of building TRs with a 'Busa in any quantity are Gary Tinker & Randy Suddreth (TRV). You can have TRV build you a car from the ground up with a brand new chassis straight from 600 Racing or start with a roller. I'm pretty certain a brand new, front-running 'Busa powered TR with all the bells & whistles will be >$30k. Of course, that number also depends on what kind of bells & whistles you want (data acquisition, cameras, communications, transponder, etc).

A used TR will cost from $3k (circle-track roller) to $17k (road coarse set-up w/Yamaha water-cooled motor).

If you did the majority of the work yourself -- A 'Busa conversion is ~$10k (engine, wiring harness, ECU, tune, misc bits to make the engine fit) + chassis $? + road course set-up ~$3k (springs, diff, etc) + fiberglass body ~$3k.

If you can find yourself a used TR with a busa conversion, I'd say that's the least expensive way to get a front running car. However, since the busa conversions are only starting to show up at the track, not many are for sale at the moment. (I know, I've been watching RacingJunk & keeping my ears to the ground for a used one since last year.)

But as expensive as all this sounds, the consumables are what really make this affordable racing. Tires are $500/set & they'll last at least 1/3 season if you run in every single practice, qualifier & race. Brake pads ~$200/set for an entire season. Change the oil & filter after every race weekend. Brake fluid flush every other race weekend (overkill).

Also, something else to consider: as a dedicated race car with a tube-frame chassis, these things are very hard to break & parts can be cut off/welded for repairs. If I did to a Spec E30/Miata/H2 as I've done to my TR, I'd have gone thru at least 2 cars already. (OK, let the jokes begin. I'll start -- Yes, us Asians are krazy drivers...) But with the TR, I've just had to replace broken fiberglass body panels, front/rear clips, misc. broken components. Other TR drivers can atest to being hit by other cars (in/out of class) & suffer minimal damage -- which if in a different vehicle, would have rendered that car a total write-off.

As another aside, the TR's on RacingJunk going for ~$5k are circle car set-ups with air-cooled Yamaha motors. If you get one of those, consider only the chassis & body useful. You'll need to convert it to road coarse set-up & consider at least a water-cooled Yamaha or convert to busa. Whle the air-cooled motors can be run, they don't have the longevity of a water-cooled motor & will need a rebuild much sooner than a water-cooled motor. I'm assuming one of the reasons those cars in TX & NV are going for so little is bc the motors have gone to their limit & need a rebuild/refresh. As I understand it, 600 Racing isn't even dealing with the air-cooled motors any longer & have only gone to working on water-cooled Yamahas.

I know of at least one brand new, never seen a track, busa-powered TR to be at CMP this coming weekend. There will also be at least 1, if not 2, newly converted ones there as well. Come to the TR "camp" to check them out, meet the owner/drivers & talk with Randy.

_________________
Sonny Tu
EmergencyResponseCoordinator
Lead Classroom Instructor
POS Motorsports Thunder Roadster #68


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:46 pm 
Offline
Hard-core Forum Racer
Hard-core Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:40 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Great info guys and I really appreciate it. Still in long range planning mode for sure..........and I move very slowly with this type of decision but everything I'm reading here makes this sound like a viable long range plan. And as Mike Ellison pointed out, as much as we love our Z's they can be pricey even as dedicated track cars so the more I've explored that route the less realistic it seems. And SpecZ does not seem to be taking off anyway.

Mike Rea, I may take you up on your offer, or at least find you at the track.

Sonny, as I've watched the internet for used road course TRs over the last year I see a fair number of them going for around $10k. I believe most of them have had water cooled Yamahas but definitely not Hayabusas. Should I assume that these engines are close to needing work for that price?

If I could get through an initial season (which would consist of a DE4 weekend, then comp school and then a last place race or two) with a so-so engine would $10k be a bad buy for a car that I was fairly sure would need a new engine for the next season?

_________________
George


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 3:35 pm 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Lake Wylie, SC
n80 wrote:
If I could get through an initial season (which would consist of a DE4 weekend, then comp school and then a last place race or two) with a so-so engine would $10k be a bad buy for a car that I was fairly sure would need a new engine for the next season?

The cars for ~$10k probably have water-cooled motors but might be circle track cars. I haven't seen a decent road track car with a water-cooled motor in it for less than $12k. If it was a road course car, I'd venture to say it was missing some (major) stuff or the engine was close to needing a refresh.

Problem with an unknown water-cooled motor is you just don't know what the history of the motor is & how long it's going to last. Kevin Mewborn & I bought cars from the same father-son circle track team. (Something happened to the father where he couldn't race any longer so the son decided he didn't want to compete any more without his dad competing.) His engine has been going strong for over 3 yrs. Mine was strong for 1 year & then it blew-up. I bought a used motor that looked good & passed compression/leak down testing. I ran it for a season & it was down on power after that one year. I ended-up refreshing it & when it was taken apart, found it to have every top quality internal available for those motors already in it. But it still needed a refresh. This was last winter & I ran it most of last year (to a 2nd place season points championship). I should be good to go for at least another season or 2 with it. But, who really knows?

One of the main reasons why people are going to the busa is bc of the unknown quantity of the Yamaha motors as to their longevity. They were never designed to push the amount of weight & produce as much HP as we've been pushing them to make. They were designed for motorcycles with less than half the weight of the TR. The Hayabusa is designed to make >190HP but is detuned to <130HP for TR application. This will help to increase the longevity of the motors since they aren't being pushed anywhere close to the limits of design.

Having said all that, there is nothing wrong with your original plan. I guess the same could be said about any race car's engine -- you never know the history & how well it's been maintained. All you can do is a leak down & compression tests & hope for the best.

The other thing to consider -- as the busa's start to dominate & become more popular, people are going to be getting out of their Yamaha powered cars. So, the market will drop on those cars & the Yamaha motors will get steadily cheaper to purchase. There are PLENTY of Yamaha motors available from the Legends side of the market so sourcing one of those motors will never be difficult. So, waiting, as you've planned, will work to your advantage.

_________________
Sonny Tu
EmergencyResponseCoordinator
Lead Classroom Instructor
POS Motorsports Thunder Roadster #68


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 4:15 pm 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:37 pm
Posts: 435
Great info, Sonny...and I'm sorry if I hijacked, George.

Sonny, you offered for me to drive your car at rrr when I was in DE2 but since I had never been there, I declined. Been kicking myself ever since.

The one that just popped up on the nasa-se fb page looks like a great starting point.

It is very hard to get past the open-car thing for me. Too many half-shafts going through windshields, tree limbs etc. Has anyone crashed one at a decent speed other than Sonny's brake failure into 10a, last year? Do they crash well? ...not insinuating that they don't, I'm just not educated about those aspects of them.

_________________
Chris
'99 C5 Cpe
Instructor/TT3/$T3


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:40 am 
Offline
Hard-core Forum Racer
Hard-core Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:40 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Rock Hill, SC
braknl8 wrote:
The one that just popped up on the nasa-se fb page looks like a great starting point.


That one is a good example of what I've been seeing from time to time but no details given on that particular one so who knows.

And when Thunder Chicken was for sale it was also around $10k.

_________________
George


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:46 am 
Offline
Hard-core Forum Racer
Hard-core Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:40 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Rock Hill, SC
Here you go Sonny:

http://www.racingjunk.com/NASA-Performa ... dster.html

Wish I had the time and money to look into this one.....and wish it was closer. Listed as NASA PT so assuming road course set up/

_________________
George


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 8:03 pm 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Lake Wylie, SC
n80 wrote:
braknl8 wrote:
The one that just popped up on the nasa-se fb page looks like a great starting point.


That one is a good example of what I've been seeing from time to time but no details given on that particular one so who knows.

And when Thunder Chicken was for sale it was also around $10k.

The guy selling, Ray Scott, is a well known quantity in the TR grp. Pretty much everyone with a Yamaha motor goes to him to have the jets on the carbs tuned. He's also a talented engine builder. More than that, he's an all-around great guy. If he says that car is good to go, it's good to go. (But it might be an air-cooled motor.) The only downside to that car is it has the original body-style. Body-styles are personal preference (there are 3), but the full-body style (like mine) is theoretically the fastest bc it is more aerodynamic. The aero differences are less important at CMP but come into play in a big way at Rd-A, RRR, VIR & Daytona. Again, a new body will cost ~$3k if you purchase it & install it yourself.

As an aside, the Thunder Chicken had an air-cooled motor. Again, the cars with air-cooled motors are worth less than the ones with a water-cooled motor.

_________________
Sonny Tu
EmergencyResponseCoordinator
Lead Classroom Instructor
POS Motorsports Thunder Roadster #68


Last edited by sonny on Thu May 14, 2015 8:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 8:10 pm 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jul 29, 2003 5:03 pm
Posts: 434
Location: Lake Wylie, SC
n80 wrote:
Here you go Sonny:

http://www.racingjunk.com/NASA-Performa ... adster.htm
Wish I had the time and money to look into this one.....and wish it was closer. Listed as NASA PT so assuming road course set up/

Thanks. I've seen that one listed a number of times already. Thus far, after having been listed a number of times, it hasn't sold. It's set-up for PT & will need mods to make it legal for TR. The original ad at the beginning of winter listed everything on the car. There were way too many things that had to be removed/exchanged to make it TR legal. Also, IIRC, it has carbs instead of fuel injectors so detuning it for TR would be much more difficult. In my mind, more trouble than it was worth. But thanks for pointing it out!

Again, you guys need to come over to the TR camp at CMP, look at the cars & talk to Randy Suddreth, He's also more than willing to field phone calls.

_________________
Sonny Tu
EmergencyResponseCoordinator
Lead Classroom Instructor
POS Motorsports Thunder Roadster #68


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri May 15, 2015 11:26 am 
Offline
Hard-core Forum Racer
Hard-core Forum Racer
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:40 pm
Posts: 763
Location: Rock Hill, SC
I thought I might be able to make it over to Kershaw tomorrow just to spectate but wedding plans/preparations for my daughter are getting in the way.........I know, misplaced priorities........but I will get together with the TR guys at the next event. Should have more freedom and more track budget once all this wedding stuff is over.

_________________
George


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2015 5:47 pm 
Offline
Forum Time Trialer
Forum Time Trialer
User avatar

Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2012 5:25 pm
Posts: 177
Location: Ooltewah, TN
braknl8 wrote:
Great info, Sonny...and I'm sorry if I hijacked, George.

Sonny, you offered for me to drive your car at rrr when I was in DE2 but since I had never been there, I declined. Been kicking myself ever since.

The one that just popped up on the nasa-se fb page looks like a great starting point.

It is very hard to get past the open-car thing for me. Too many half-shafts going through windshields, tree limbs etc. Has anyone crashed one at a decent speed other than Sonny's brake failure into 10a, last year? Do they crash well? ...not insinuating that they don't, I'm just not educated about those aspects of them.



Did someone say crash? lol
Here's video from my car when Will's master cylinder failed going into turn 1 at CMP last year. Considering I had almost gotten around the corner and the way he hit me, it was essentially a 95-100mph hit. Messed up the cars pretty bad, but both are back out and running well. I chipped a couple of teeth, but neither of us were even sore the next day. They might be light, small cars, but safety is another huge advantage of a true, purpose built, tube frame, race car.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmTHnGvA9Qg

Sorry you couldn't make it by the hauler at CMP, but we'll be at RA in a couple of weeks too.
With the number of people that did come by and chat/ask questions, I wouldn't be surprised to see the class continue to grow in NASA-SE.

_________________
'03 Viper (weekend driver / track toy)
Full Throttle Racing Thunder Roadster (#77)


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 25 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group