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 Post subject: Stock car - down class?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:06 pm 
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A wild idea that occured to me while I was debating SCCA vs NASA rules. The other guy was complaining about all the mods he would need to do to be competitive under the NASA X rules vs SCCA stock rules (may of them zero points mods).

Say someone shows up with a bone stock car. Could he take a credit for narrow tires and run in the class below his base class as long as he didn't break out on the power to wieght requirment?

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Last edited by Grintch on Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 12:07 pm 
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this is allowed in TT, have to end up at -1 or lower points in total... not 100% sure on NASA-X but since it's based on TT one would assume so.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 04, 2013 2:48 pm 
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The official answer is "yes that's ok."

I haven't seen anyone do it in NASA-X yet, and in many instances I don't know if they would be competitive as a result of downclassing, but it's certainly possible and there's only one way to find out.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:17 am 
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Grintch wrote:
A wild idea that occured to me while I was debating SCCA vs NASA rules. The other guy was complaining about all the mods he would need to do to be competitive under the NASA X rules vs SCCA stock rules (may of them zero points mods).
?


I guess he has never seen a national event level "stock" class car before. :wink: R-comps, double adjustable shocks, lightweight wheels, ugraded sway bar............

I know its just Dec. but any ballpark on when the new rules will be out. Got folks gearing up for next season. :D


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:21 am 
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Dead Horse wrote:
I know its just Dec. but any ballpark on when the new rules will be out. Got folks gearing up for next season. :D


Usually a week or two after the TT/PT rules for the following season come out, sometimes longer depending on how much stuff needs to be discussed :wink: Traditionally that is Jan/Feb.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:03 am 
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Yes, I pointed out the cost of remote reservoir double adjustable shocks and super soft compound tires as wide as you can stuff onto stock size wheels allowed in Stock.

He was actually looking at the 2009 rules (for some reason they come up first when you do a search), and a few of the no points allowances he objected to have gone away (gearing mods, lightweight flywheel, strut tower braces). The remaining big issues are:
Competition weights that are typically ~200lbs lighter than the weight of the stock car with driver requiring a lot of stripping/modding to get to minimum weight (I am completely with him on this one).
Open aero (personally here I would like to see a compromise between no points for optional/street/tuner [pep boys] aero and the current TT/PT type points for big/effective race aero).
Getting points accessed for factory option hardware.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:09 am 
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Unbolting stuff usually doesn't cost much.

Charging points for optional factory parts prevents the "oh shoo-shiddily-diddily, they just released a special edition with 5% better X,Y,Z better go buy it or be an also-ran" car to have type crap.


There are parts of every ruleset ever made that each individual just isn't going to agree with though, tough to make everyone happy in the end. I feel like understanding the philosophy/approaches/etc that the rules makers are taking at least takes the sting off of something that may not be optimal for you / your car / your approach / etc. though.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:31 pm 
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kbrew8991 wrote:
Unbolting stuff usually doesn't cost much.

Charging points for optional factory parts prevents the "oh shoo-shiddily-diddily, they just released a special edition with 5% better X,Y,Z better go buy it or be an also-ran" car to have type crap.


There are parts of every ruleset ever made that each individual just isn't going to agree with though, tough to make everyone happy in the end. I feel like understanding the philosophy/approaches/etc that the rules makers are taking at least takes the sting off of something that may not be optimal for you / your car / your approach / etc. though.


I agree on the unbolting/stripping stuff for Performance Touring, but no so much for a likely street driven autocoss (or even TT) car. Especially as there is no way short of a reclass to recover this disadvanatge if you want to keep your car with a full interior & AC, like negative points for being overweight like those for being under-tired.

The base model approach (which SCCA, in theory, uses on the road racing side, but not so much in practice) assumes that the ugrade parts are equivalent to aftermarket performacne parts, which they are usually not. Could not an update/backdate approach not better deal with a new, must have option? Is it not more fun trying to buy a car with all the right parts than trying to find a completely base one without any of the wrong parts (I recall a Mustang guy complaining about the stuggle to find a car without any of the wide variety of apearance packages that would have counted against his TT aero points while providing 0 real benefit)?

But yes, no rule set is perfect and overall I like the flexibility of the NX/TT/PT approach.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 29, 2014 10:39 am 
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The club I have been autocrossing in has used the SCCA model closely, but is considering NASA-X rules at the moment.

I have read the rules and feel two ways about them.

On one hand it is great for classifying cars that show up fairly as a "run what you brung" affair.

On the other hand if you let a competitor actually get a hold of the rules you are in trouble as anyone who brings what they brung is going to be completely out performed in their class.

Example-

I am currently racing my '04 automatic RX-8 while I build my ASP FD RX-7.

Wheels and tires from my FD are (295 Ventus TD) are my only mod and it bumps me up one class from NXE to NXD.

Fair enough, I classed my friends '12 Civic SI with coilovers, narrower NT01, Swaybar, Intake and it is also NXD and we run similar times.

----------------

Now the problem with reading the NASA-X rules...

I take my same '04 auto RX-8 and modify it as below-
Points mods (staying under 19 so still in base NX-E class)
Near stock width Hoosier A6s
Engine/trans moved back 10"

Free mods
car gutted
all non unibody body work, doors, roof, glass and lights etc removed and replaced with dry CF from ex Speedsource RX-8
dr/pass seats replaced and moved back to limit of stock travel or further pending clarification
new pedal set moved back to match
steering quickener added and wheel moved back
250 lbs of ballast added to offset driver weight and get up to required 3,000lbs with driver (stock 3,300lbs weight with driver)

So, I could do all that and not move up from the base NX-E class but have incredible vehicle dynamics?

Anyone bringing a "run what you brung" stock auto rx-8 or similarly classed car would have to race against me?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 30, 2014 8:56 am 
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Thanks and good point. However please think about it like this... competition - and winning - is all about maximizing/optimizing yourself and your car based on the rules. If you choose not to do the free mods, or choose to waste your points on less than optimized mods, then you're not doing it right. Which is fine! Case in point, my own autocross car isn't yet optimized for its class due to time and money. But I made that choice and have nobody to blame but myself. So I lose gracefully as a result, and try to learn something in the process. :lol:

To help us make it better... what we need are results sheets, and data, and input from members who participate. Send an email if you have a suggestion about how to improve something, every one of 'em gets considered. But generally speaking, nobody ever said any classing would make every car with whatever set of modifications competitive. That's literally impossible. Again the trick to winning, not just with us but anywhere with anyone, is figuring out what to start with and how to optimize it :wink:

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