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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:08 am 
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wildhorsesracing wrote:
For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.


Exactly my point. Also see MGMGB's post right above.

READ THE NASA CCRs people. "Modified 13/13" is in there, just not in those exact words.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:26 am 
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I say eliminate the 13/13 rule. The CCR gives the Race Director enough latitude in ramping up the penalties that it isn't needed.
When it comes to the 13 month suspension, who decides when this is appropriate? This is a GTS rule, so the Race Director will not be the one handing it out (at least in our regions), so that leaves the Series Director, who may not have even been around when the incident happened.
Besides, handing out a 13 month suspension when a 2 or 3, or whatever number, race suspension may have been more appropriate would be a problem. More than likely, someone who receives a 13 month suspension will not return to NASA. And not only them, but anyone they may have brought over to us.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 2:50 pm 
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RSCoupe wrote:
I say eliminate the 13/13 rule. The CCR gives the Race Director enough latitude in ramping up the penalties that it isn't needed.
When it comes to the 13 month suspension, who decides when this is appropriate? This is a GTS rule, so the Race Director will not be the one handing it out (at least in our regions), so that leaves the Series Director, who may not have even been around when the incident happened.
Besides, handing out a 13 month suspension when a 2 or 3, or whatever number, race suspension may have been more appropriate would be a problem. More than likely, someone who receives a 13 month suspension will not return to NASA. And not only them, but anyone they may have brought over to us.



Here's the think Mark, while you certainly have an interested in GTS as a Race Director, there is no guarantee that others will. To those proposing that "it's not used, therefore eliminate it"... How often do you use your timing light and cam adjustment tool in your garage? OH? Only once per year? Well throw them away then along with all those other tools you don't use very often.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 7:15 pm 
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13/13 rule needs to stay. It is a deterrent and out here on the left coast it is the only thing that has a chance of bringing the BMWCCA and PCA guys into the fold...

If you think it is not clear, clarify... if you think it is not enforced, enforce... It is one of core concepts of GTS verses other series as the cars in our class tend to cost more, hence keep the racing clean... I'll say it again, we already have a hard time getting those guys involved out here.... it goes to 0 if 13/13 goes away...

-Chuck

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:54 am 
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CKKrause wrote:
13/13 rule needs to stay. It is a deterrent and out here on the left coast it is the only thing that has a chance of bringing the BMWCCA and PCA guys into the fold...

If you think it is not clear, clarify... if you think it is not enforced, enforce... It is one of core concepts of GTS verses other series as the cars in our class tend to cost more, hence keep the racing clean... I'll say it again, we already have a hard time getting those guys involved out here.... it goes to 0 if 13/13 goes away...

-Chuck


Chuck, please read the replies and comments above. Specifically:

wildhorsesracing wrote:
For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.

It's ALREADY IN THE CCRs. Hell, the "modified 13/13" blurb in the rules even specifically points to the NASA CCR for guidance on fault and penalties! It's also done on a "sliding scale" which doesnt mean 13 months either. It could be any amount of time. The whole point of this debate is that the "modified 13/13" is ALREADY in the NASA CCR as currently written in the GTS Rules.

Really IRKS me to read posts of those who say "KEEP IT!!!", but they dont even bother to read the dang rules to see what it says.

Quote:
2. Modified 13/13
To promote clean and competitive driving, in addition to NASA’s rules and suggested sanctions
in the CCR, the series will use a Modified 13/13 rule for on course conduct. The intent of the
Modified 13/13 rule is to provide some degree of deterrence against casual body damage and
contact by careless drivers but without excessive penalties for normal race driving. In multiple
car incidents all relevant evidence will be used to assess fault. Sanctions for drivers found to be
at fault will be imposed by officials on a sliding scale subject to the discretion of the officials.
Drivers in single car incidents will not be subject to sanction under the Modified 13/13 rule. The
Modified 13/13 rule can also be applied to a driver whose on track conduct causes damage to
another driver’s car even if there was no physical contact between the cars. Penalty decisions
will be heard by any combination of NASA Race Directors, GTS officials, and/or Incident
Review Boards (IRB’s) which may be formed and operated per the NASA CCR.
GTS Modified 13/13 penalties will not be applied when an incident occurs in a mixed race group
between a GTS driver and a driver in another class. In those instances, standard NASA CCR
penalties and procedures will apply.
The Modified 13/13 rule can be applied post event as it is not always possible to determine fault
at the track in a timely manner. No Modified 13/13 penalty can conflict with the findings of a
NASA Race Director
and penalties can vary in length subject to the discretion of GTS officials.
Regardless of the length of the penalty, no penalty is over until the driver participates in at least
one GTS class race while subject to the penalty


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:07 am 
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magnetic1 wrote:
CKKrause wrote:
13/13 rule needs to stay. It is a deterrent and out here on the left coast it is the only thing that has a chance of bringing the BMWCCA and PCA guys into the fold...

If you think it is not clear, clarify... if you think it is not enforced, enforce... It is one of core concepts of GTS verses other series as the cars in our class tend to cost more, hence keep the racing clean... I'll say it again, we already have a hard time getting those guys involved out here.... it goes to 0 if 13/13 goes away...

-Chuck


Chuck, please read the replies and comments above. Specifically:

wildhorsesracing wrote:
For all who want to keep the 13/13 rule please give a concise definition that will be enforceable. In it's current state it is very subjective, and not clear cut for penalties like the NASA CCR's are. One look at Appendix A and you'll see that the CCR's go a lot further than a vague rule about 13 months.

It's ALREADY IN THE CCRs. Hell, the "modified 13/13" blurb in the rules even specifically points to the NASA CCR for guidance on fault and penalties! It's also done on a "sliding scale" which doesnt mean 13 months either. It could be any amount of time. The whole point of this debate is that the "modified 13/13" is ALREADY in the NASA CCR as currently written in the GTS Rules.

Really IRKS me to read posts of those who say "KEEP IT!!!", but they dont even bother to read the dang rules to see what it says.

Quote:



While it may IRK you, the proposal at the head of this thread is:Eliminate the 13/13 rule! I was clear that I want to retain the rule for the reasons given... Whether you like my response or not, my view is that it will help grow the series out here.

-CHuck

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:16 am 
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Is there noting in the 13/13 rule that is in addition to the CCR's? Nothing? Not even direction for penalties even if it's just variable month deal? If there is anything different, I think it's good to keep it for what I think it was intended for - encourage folks with expensive cars to come out and race because this rule goes somewhat beyond the base rules. If it does nothing, then why even ask? If it's not being enforced, that's a personal problem.
When I was considering NASA in addition to BMW, I was told it's much more "bang 'em up". Lots of local guys said that was ridiculous. They were wrong. But I love it here and will race primarily in NASA next year.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:24 pm 
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CKKrause wrote:

While it may IRK you, the proposal at the head of this thread is:Eliminate the 13/13 rule! I was clear that I want to retain the rule for the reasons given... Whether you like my response or not, my view is that it will help grow the series out here.

-CHuck


Chuck, once again, you havent read what I wrote. This isnt BMWCCA 13/13 or PCA 13/13. Have you READ the GTS 13/13 blurb???

I can understand if you want to retain a rule similar to BMWCCA 13/13, and a rule similar to that would help grow the series out there, but therein lies the problem. The current GTS Modified 13/13 is nowhere NEAR that. Hence the call to eliminate it since it duplicates what NASA already has.

If your goal is to have it be more like BMWCCA's 13/13, then your post should reflect that you want to clarify the current GTS 13/13. Otherwise, just saying "KEEP IT" doesnt do anything at all. Keeping what? a redundant set of penalties that mirror the NASA CCRs at best?

Seriously, everyone who keeps saying "KEEP IT", PLEASE just take 5 min. out of your time to read the rules. Then, come back and tell me you want to keep it. If you still say keep it, then that pretty much is the same as eliminating it based on the fact that similar penalties exist in the current NASA CCRs.

Which is my reasoning for eliminating it. As shown in this thread, it makes people assume it is the same 13/13 as BMW/PCA and then have certain expectations of such. It ISNT the same. If we wish to make it similar but a more lenient version, then it needs to be clarified.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:04 pm 
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The purpose of a 13-13- rule is a deterant to car to car contact. Motorsports is not a contact sport. Read >>> Randy Pobst's article in November Sports Car Magazine. In ALMS you wil be brought in during a race and talked to for a while then sent back out maybe a lap down. In World Chalallenge you will be brought in during the race if it is obvious driver error (almost all contact is), and/or fined after the fact with $x,xxx plus deduction points. Pro series have TV and full time observers for these sort of things, how is NASA going to control a $10,000 GTS1 car turning into a $200,000 Porsche Cup Car. NASA cannot monitor this if what you say is true that they presently do not even have a data base nor enforce the 13-13 rule. I do not understand why this is so complicated. PCA has no problem enforcing and monitoring it. HSR has no problems either. Maybe NASA should focus on enforcemenet and have the cheif steward report the 13-13 to NASA National office. Will... you can write them in your lil black book :-)
If NASA does away with the 13-13 rule because it is proved not to be enforced and there is no database (BTW silly reasons to do away with a good rule) then how will NASA enforce blatent car ro car contact during the last lap of a National Championship. It becomes a judgement call that will cost someone a championship.
I say we keep the 13-13 rule and create a database and enforce the rule.. That seems simple to a simple mind.

I am convinced that if the 13-13 rule goes GTS entries will decline (certainly the higher end cars) and car to car contact wil be accepted as normal behavior to overcome a drivers lack of talent and patience.

Scott Bove | GTS4 #22 | BMW E46 M3


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:39 am 
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Other than the redundancy, could one or more of the 'drop it's proponents explain to me the passion for dropping it? If its not used, why all the concern? I believe its a useful draw to our series. It is, in fact, one of the reasons I joined.

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