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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:40 am 
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This was suggested by three people. Their arguments for the proposal were as follows:

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NASA's CCR provides extensive and detailed means for determining both when a penalty should be applied and what that penalty should be. The 13/13 rule is a holdover from the early days of GTS when it was believed this was necessary to attract participants from other series. At this point, it is a rarely-if-ever-used provision which can just as easily be addressed through the standard NASA CCR provisions.

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First of all there is NO National Data base to keep track of 13/13's, so it is kind of a moot point to put someone on probation if no one else in the country knows about it nor is it enforced from region to region.

Also, when GTS first started it used a modified version of 13/13 rule found in PCA and BMW Club to help attract drivers from those other bodies. Those clubs continue to use the rule, but have lost many of their racers to NASA GTS. Also when the 13/13 rule was first used by these clubs, racers were driving their cars to and from the track, so it was used to make sure folks could safely race and drive back home.

This is no longer the case. In GTS race cars are getting more and more sophisticated and I can't think of one racer that drives his car to the track !! Also when you get a racer to come to GTS and he has a contact incident, with the 13/13 in most cases you'll find the driver stops coming to events, as the threat of a 13 month exclusion from the series isn't the best for encouraging someone to race ! In fact, the 13/13 rule hasn't been enforced for years and the GTS group keeps growing and growing !!

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The modified 13/13 rule is completely redundant to the NASA rules and suggested sanctions. It ads no new specific sanctions over those that are currently used in the standard CCR.

It can only be used with GTS to GTS contact, not out of GTS contact and single car incidents.

It can be confusing to drivers who assume that it is similar to other sanctioning bodies 13/13 rule.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 9:25 am 
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I'm in favor of doing away with the 13/13. It's not really ever been enforced and the CCR has rules that deal with body contact. One less thing the directors have to worry about.


-Scott B.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:23 pm 
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I say keep it:
- I disagree with the origins of the rule as written in the above posts. IMO 13/13 is a deterrent of contact to get guys in Porsches BMWs and such to race there cars that are typically way more expensive than what's out there beating and banging - like Miatas and SE30's.
- Nationals was brutal. I know of many folks who claim that they will not return due to the carnage. If there is a decrease in GTS participation from other (other than GL) regions, you may be able to point to that.
- The threat of not being able to race (the deterrent factor of 13/13) is a good thing. I think BMW does a great job of enforcing the penalty. It's unwritten (and not uniformly followed by all stewards regrettably) but if both parties are cool, no penalty. In the case of an impact this year at Nats when an E46 GTS4 smashed a 911 square in the ass and the guy was NOT cool with it (to say the least) - penalty. Allow in the rules for discretion and coach your folks on how to apply it. I don't think anyone can argue that 13's should have gone out in GTS at Nats. I was surprised fewer folks didn't raise hell about it.
- Lockton/Affinity is considering offering track insurance for 13/13 racing (they do travel/paddock insurance now). I think many people will look at this. It may only be applicable for GTS only run groups and that may be an issue but just throwing it out there.

I saying these things from an administrative position (I'm not a NASA admin but I am a businessman) as I have no problem with the rough and tumble. I've had contact racing in the past 3 years about 5 times. All but 1 was racing NASA, none were GTS cars. But I have seen a situation where the 13 worked. In MA we had a round track driver come into GTS and "rub" every car in the field for 3 weekends. He is a great guy and LOVES to race but had he been allowed to continue he would have emptied the GTS ranks. He has since fallen in line so I say it worked.

Rigid Nazi style enforcement is not the answer just as eliminating the rule isn't. Relaxed common sense application is the way, you need to keep the rule on the books for that little bit of piece of mind for the guy with the GT3 or the E92 M3 who's thinking of coming in, or the hammer you need to get someone under control.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:31 pm 
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scottbm3 wrote:
I'm in favor of doing away with the 13/13. It's not really ever been enforced and the CCR has rules that deal with body contact. One less thing the directors have to worry about.


-Scott B.


I think we need to keep it. Irrespective of the CCR it adds muscle to the Stewards rulings if needed. I agree video and other resolution tools are increasingly more valuable but if the intention is to keep the sport growing, anything that limits, prevents or reduces the liklihood of metal bending as well as injury, is good. Or we can expect the fields to be reduced only to those cars where enough owners are willing to assume that every event is a Lemons replay.

Colin C.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:37 pm 
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I personally like the 13/13 rule and also drive my car to the track. It one big reason I joined this GTS class. My vote would be to keep it..

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:04 pm 
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jcrist wrote:
I say keep it:

I saying these things from an administrative position (I'm not a NASA admin but I am a businessman) as I have no problem with the rough and tumble. I've had contact racing in the past 3 years about 5 times. All but 1 was racing NASA, none were GTS cars. But I have seen a situation where the 13 worked. In MA we had a round track driver come into GTS and "rub" every car in the field for 3 weekends. He is a great guy and LOVES to race but had he been allowed to continue he would have emptied the GTS ranks. He has since fallen in line so I say it worked.


In this example, the stewards could not have used regular CCR rules to penalize this fellow? Why not ?

Was it trully a 13/13 or was it just what they called that penalty. There have been plenty of times drivers have gone home or missed races because of CCR penalties.

I know of at least two people who have gotten significant (year ending) penalties for re-occuring issues. I know of a couple that have had probation for further contact. (in GTS or not)

That said, how do you administer an out of class car (lets say spec944) that runs in the GTS group and hits people. He does not have a 13/13 rule in his class. I am sure that the insurance companies would not insure a mixed 13/13 class with non 13/13 classes if they are not willing to insure non-13/13 classes. And, if that is the only criteria that they are using for which groups to insure...

Thanks

Ed

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 2:28 pm 
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it needs to be kept, it's a deterent against overly agreesive drivers, case in point rennsport 4 i got tapped TWICE once & practice the other i would consider a race incident, the race incident the other party owned up to it, thus no issues, the first incident was in PRACTICE & the other party got defensive, ideally the 13/13 rule will prevent low percentage passes

if you have no checks & balances what is to prevent someone from intentionally causing a incident? other than banning them?


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 4:43 pm 
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The 13 rule is a joke in Mid Atlantic. If we are going to keep the rule it needs to be enforced. You can't give a driver 5 or 6 chances.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Keep it.

And enforce it.

I won't drag up history but the threat of not being able to race for 13 months is motivation to not be stupid. Some of these GTS cars have a lot of money in them and I find the 13/13 gives me a little confidence that the guy next to me is aware of the rule.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:15 pm 
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I agree with what jcrist (Jason C.) and Goodhands (Scott B.) have to say, precise, to the point...and what I'd like to see.

Enforcement is another concern, definitely...good discussion.

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