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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 1:06 pm 
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doclouns wrote:
Disagree. In fact I have been pondering a proposal to increase the penalty. In my research, I have found that PCA penalizes a 3000 lb car in GTB w/pdk 100 lbs and 125lbs if it is a GT4 or 981. That is a higher penalty than we current assess. Other comparable numbers I can find are 100 lbs in SCCA T1 and Trans Am T3 for a true sequential. BMW CCA bumps you from mod into supermod.
In NASA GTS4, a 3000 lb car is only penalized 70lbs by my math.
Therefore, at the very least no change if not an increase based on other well-known series' as a comparison. The math for a 3000lb car would be between .3 and .35 to get to 100-125 lbs penalty.



Conversely, in PCA I run in GT2 which is a power to weight class, unlike GTB, and there is no penalty. GTB is more of a BOP like ST while GT is more simple power to weight like GTS.

Again, what is GTS, power to weight or anther ST series.

In BMW, running a DCT transmission would bump you into supermod if the car came with it ?

At the same time, are you running in a region where there are PDK Caymans and Boxsters doing well in GTS ? We have so few already. One in the region I run. Does well on occasion, but not dominating.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:16 pm 
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Pro's would not run a sequential if they were actually slower. No empirical evidence. i guess we could ask Patrick Long!!! lol

As far as a PDK goes they are definitely easier to drive. But, they add weight, they "use" some HP, and currently the fastest Porsche club racers are running 6 sp's.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:39 pm 
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I will be the first to admit I am not a Porsche guy, but, there is a weight penalty, regardless of the class. So there is at least a perceived BOP advantage with pdk. As far as DCT, that would not put you in Mod or SM in BMW ( it comes as a stock tranny), just a true sequential as well as a dogbox. But in BMW, airjacks put you in SM, so go figure. So as far as pdk/dct etc... one can argue that point since they are stock configurations. The proposal specifically specifies "sequentials" which I interpret as aftermarket.
We have no Porsches running in NE so I have no comparison there. But I would suggest that that is a poor way to argue the point. You need the same driver in car a vs car b to make any comparisons as far as results. Flat shifting is clearly faster than a manual. Period. The only debate is the effect on actual lap times. The data is sparse. I argue that other series penalize and we should be consistent with them. Somebody smarter than me came up with the idea so I would argue that it is not whether, but how much. If the calculated range is .3-.35 in those series, then I propose those higher numbers.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:43 am 
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doclouns wrote:
Flat shifting is clearly faster than a manual. Period. .


Again, this is incorrect. I have evidence that it is not. Your position is perceived, not fact. How fast one shifts does not need to be compared with the same driver with same aero. With the AIM data you can clearly see the shifts and you can clearly see that the sequential looses more time in a shift.

As I stated originally, since most do not know, a true sequential with a dog box, cuts the throttle when you shift. If it did not it would tear up the transmission in a day. This cut is to allow the gears to mesh. With a standard box pushing the clutch in accomplishes the same thing (plus the standard transmission has syncros which ease the pain). The difference is that with a sequential there is engine braking while with a standard box there is not. This engine cut can be seen with the AIM data and is more pronounced than a shift with a clutch and H pattern.

You also state that it is OK for the DCT or the PDK event thought they are faster than a sequential.

I understand that I am in a minority. And, because of this EVERYONE else is against this rule because they do not understand, have a perceived position, or would like to have this advantage against a car with a sequential. That is a shame.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 5:48 am 
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Well, Ill just say I was privy to AIM data at the same event that showed the opposite for me vs a certain true sequential car. A significant straight line advantage. Thats my point of reference, all mechanical engineering aside. I guess I could be a slow shifter.......So I go back to my original point. I think GTS should mimic other well-known series' and actually increase the penalty rather than eliminate it.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 6:05 am 
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Ed,

Can you post the graphs of this data you are referring to? This would help a lot with the discussion. Otherwise its just one opinion over another.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:45 am 
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Chris,

I can not since it was compliance data, not my own.

I will save my breath and see what kind of data I can put together to support my position for the future.

Thanks

Ed

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:48 pm 
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If you have a sequential that is slower to shift than a conventional h pattern, then you have a calibration problem.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 5:19 am 
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911.racer wrote:
doclouns wrote:
Flat shifting is clearly faster than a manual. Period. .


Again, this is incorrect. I have evidence that it is not. Your position is perceived, not fact. How fast one shifts does not need to be compared with the same driver with same aero. With the AIM data you can clearly see the shifts and you can clearly see that the sequential looses more time in a shift.



This rule doesn't impact me at all (E36 M3 in GTS2), but if there is data available that supports one side of the argument, please post it here for everyone to see. It would probably be helpful to provide an explanation of what we are looking at, as well.

Cheers.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 3:47 pm 
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mjmccoy wrote:
If you have a sequential that is slower to shift than a conventional h pattern, then you have a calibration problem.


FYI,

Factory set. No calibration or adjustment

https://rennlist.com/forums/porsche-cup ... 997-a.html

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