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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:32 pm 
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Everyone has a soap box.


Come 2012 $hit or get off the pot. No more crying no more whinning about what could be etc.. Come out and race and lay it on the line.

So sick of the forum talk just lets all go race and see what plays in 2012 regardless.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:52 pm 
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Red Tornado wrote:
Everyone has a soap box.


Come 2012 $hit or get off the pot. No more crying no more whinning about what could be etc.. Come out and race and lay it on the line.

So sick of the forum talk just lets all go race and see what plays in 2012 regardless.


I think the forums are awesome, I think it is the best way to get ideas heard and to learn new perspectives. I don't see anyone crying from where I sit. I see passion and people who really care about our series. I may not always agree, and I am sure most don't agree to me, but I will always defend their right or even obligation to participate share ideas and we need to protect against efforts to shut us up. The last time that happend a whole bunch of tea ended up in the Bay, well maybe not the last time. :)

So here is to good heathy debate and open sharing of ideas even if we won't ever agree. But heck it's just my opinion you are encourage to disagree. :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 6:04 pm 
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I am fine with all you have said. What I will not be fine with then is people sitting and not racing next season and crying all year that its unfair.
Like the forums but don't like when thats the only time people "race".
:roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 11:00 pm 
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Red Tornado wrote:
I am fine with all you have said. What I will not be fine with then is people sitting and not racing next season and crying all year that its unfair.
Like the forums but don't like when thats the only time people "race".
:roll:


I'm going to assume that this is at least partially directed in my direction. You're the third to address my racing status. Why does that have anything to do with these discussions? Does it some how make any of my comments less accurate. The facts and the data are there if you choose to see them. I suppose we all interpret them how ever we want.
Besides, maybe I'm not racing much because I'm pissed off about what a mess AI has become the last few years, or maybe I have some personal reasons, maybe I'm waiting for parity in the class before I go spend my money and time, but I'm sure it's not important to any of these discussions. In case it matters, these are the exact same agruements I've been making for the last 4 plus years, and some go back further. BTW I'm not the only one, I just happen to be the loudest and maybe the most persistant. Look around the country, the AI brand could be doing a lot better. No, I don't mean in magazines, I mean where it really matters, on the track.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:23 am 
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Although you may think the sun and stars and all things racing revolve around you it was actually a general comment that I just want to go race. Sorry to disappoint you. :shock:

As for a dead class where do you mean?? In Southeast we get 10 cars often and even in Dec race (sons bday otherwise I would be there also) we have a mix of new and old mustang, new and old Fbodies and even a challanger to boot.

Give the poor directors and Todd a break. I am sure they will listen and make a real good effort at making things right in the AI world.

Ohh and for the record the 1st car I ever raced in AI was a 1995 Firebird Formula. If I win the lottery I will build the ultimate past 3 generations mustang and fbody and see what is the best...
:lol:
Do we have any recent winners??

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:01 am 
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Red Tornado wrote:
Although you may think the sun and stars and all things racing revolve around you it was actually a general comment that I just want to go race. Sorry to disappoint you. :shock:

As for a dead class where do you mean??


Ouch, ! I suppose I have as much of an ego as any competive racer, but I've been arguing the facts. Some guys have decided to make it personal, I've stayed away from that. I prefer just the opposite, nearly everyone on the board wants to tell there personal situation and how it relates. Stop. Think about the entire field, and think about any new racers, and think about what someone CAN do under the rules. Think about where the series is headed, not just how it effects you.
As usual, miss quoted. I never said the class is dead.

However, I do take exceptioin to, "lets just race". What a slap in the face to anyone who does't have the preferred platform. You're implying that ALL of us are just crying...... your words. Its just not that simple. That's the whole point of rules. It's about equality.

I've heard a lot of threats from the new Mustang guys about building something other then a new S197 to prove just how wrong we are. Why not pull the $hit off your existing car and run it ??
Dean and Steve build these cars pretty regular. They could tell there next client that they plan to put 12" brakes up front, 16" wheels and get rid of the system? How simple is that? If 14 isn't better then 13, then 12 should be equal to 13 (fuzzy math) And I think everyone agrees the FR ABS isn't an advantage, so nothing is lost there :wink: . Think of the weight savings !! Once you make these changes, let me know how your lap times compare to previous.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:59 am 
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Dave,

We're doing exactly what Chris wanted to avoid... We're discussing rules and creep and whoulda coulda shoulda...
Are you really suggesting that I go through the effort of custom machining my S197 spindles so that I can run brakes that are 10 years old and worse than the OEM stuff that came on the car? Then I need to hope to find a set of wheels that fit over those brakes and make track width... Does that really make sense? The other consideration for the rules creep is the fact that the factory parts are available and cheap. Your suggesting we use SCCA AS brake rules? Isn't that part of the reason AI was formed because those rules don't make sense given current technology? It would be like requiring the use of carburators also? The cost to do so is higher than what is comonly available.

You consistently state that everyone mis-quotes you and misunderstands you. I see that, but you've chosen to ignore a few very valid points that people have made. If I have missed your responses, I appologize because I spend more time working on my car than on the forum. One thing you seem to ignore is enforceability (if that is a word) of the rules.

You can't police ABS calibration so you can only allow OEM parts (unless you want to open up that can of worms and let people run Bosch). I don't care because I don't rely on it. You can outlaw ABS, but why don't you just run CMC2 if you don't want ABS?
Further to this point... You have mentioned doing away with ABS. Do you realize you are actually asking every competitor with a 2005+ Mustang to spend a bunch of extra money to do this. You're a budget concious guy, but you seem to have no problem suggesting that other competitors spend extra money to change their cars to meet your rule. An ABS upgrade (read that as new prop valve) on a 2005+ Mustang is around $200 and takes about 15 minutes of work. Going away from that is more expensive for parts and god knows how many hours of making all new brake lines. I like the easy route...

The same goes for controlling HP with electronic throttle. It was illegal last year, but since there is no way to police that, it was taken out of the rules for this year. I'm not doing it, but I know others are.

The rules haven't changed to favor the new Mustang. The rules have generally remained unchanged with some exceptions that just make sense from a cost and availability standpoint. The level of prep and driver quality has changed.

I agree with Chris. I just want to race. If you need help getting your car sorted, I'll actually volunteer to spend a day with you in your car. We can plan to look over your car the day before the race weekend and then work on development the following day. Since I know very little bout the older GM stuff, you may need to send me the bumpsteer curves, camber curves, damper plots, spring rates, and bar dimensions so I can get an initial baseline of the car. It would be good to know what your wheel rates are and where your damping is with rspect to those. We'll need corner weights too...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:39 pm 
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Quote:
Dave,

We're doing exactly what Chris wanted to avoid... We're discussing rules and creep and whoulda coulda shoulda...
Are you really suggesting that I go through the effort of custom machining my S197 spindles so that I can run brakes that are 10 years old and worse than the OEM stuff that came on the car? Then I need to hope to find a set of wheels that fit over those brakes and make track width... Does that really make sense? The other consideration for the rules creep is the fact that the factory parts are available and cheap. Your suggesting we use SCCA AS brake rules? Isn't that part of the reason AI was formed because those rules don't make sense given current technology? It would be like requiring the use of carburators also? The cost to do so is higher than what is comonly available.

My remarks about 12" brakes and 16" wheels were mostly sarcastic. 14" brakes and 18" wheels were one of the S197 deals. I"ve been told repeatedly, that 14" brakes (larger brakes) are of no performance advantage. So, the sarcasm is, then just use 12", and it should work geat............ I suppose sarcasm doesn't translate well.
However, you are INCORRECT. Several rule changes, starting in 07, favoring the new cars. They have all been listed several times in the last few months.
My point: There have been several threats to build an older car and continue to beat the masses, which may be the case. However, I suggest they remove a few parts and race a new Mustang with pre-2007 rules. Still may be fast, but not as fast in as in current configuration.


Quote:
You can't police ABS calibration so you can only allow OEM parts (unless you want to open up that can of worms and let people run Bosch). I don't care because I don't rely on it. You can outlaw ABS, but why don't you just run CMC2 if you don't want ABS?

If it cant be inforced, (which is not true, it can be worked out) then make it all illegal. Why is the only option to allow everything? There are a few very talented builders attempting to retrofit the Z06 system on an Fbody. BTW, not easy to do. However, if it is worked out, how is anyone going to know if a module off of Pratt & Miller or an ALMS or WC car isn't used? And who is smart enough to know the difference? This is amateur racing. It needs to be fair and cost effective. You are one of few (likely the only one) making money off of this series. The rest of us are spending it. Very differenct perspective.


Quote:
Further to this point... You have mentioned doing away with ABS. Do you realize you are actually asking every competitor with a 2005+ Mustang to spend a bunch of extra money to do this. You're a budget concious guy, but you seem to have no problem suggesting that other competitors spend extra money to change their cars to meet your rule. An ABS upgrade (read that as new prop valve) on a 2005+ Mustang is around $200 and takes about 15 minutes of work. Going away from that is more expensive for parts and god knows how many hours of making all new brake lines. I like the easy route...

The easy route for you. Then the rest of the cars in the class can either desgin, buy or build to keep up. Sure that makes perfect sense. Or as it has been suggested, we should just buy a new Mustang, or beter yet, leave the series. Not great for car couonts.
Besides are you talking about a Grand Am or Boss R or a street GT? Because its makes no sense for an amateur class to accomadate cars from pro classes.
A couple hundred in parts and 2-4 hours. I suck as a mechanic and I plumbed my entire brake lines in about 4 hours.


Quote:
The same goes for controlling HP with electronic throttle. It was illegal last year, but since there is no way to police that, it was taken out of the rules for this year. I'm not doing it, but I know others are.

Yes, racers are programing the throttle for nearly perfect HP and TQ. So, either figure out how to stop it, or get rid of it. The notion to just throw up your arms, and say, "sorry everyone else...but we cant stop it". Is a cop out and lame.


Quote:
The rules haven't changed to favor the new Mustang. The rules have generally remained unchanged with some exceptions that just make sense from a cost and availability standpoint. The level of prep and driver quality has changed.

They have changed nearly every year, since 2007 in favor on the Grand Am car. BTW in as early as 2006 there were already several S197 cars built, which were prior to the changes. It can and did happen. A large percentage were very capable and highly competitive. Nationals 2006, there were (4) legal (prior to rule mods) S197's. Despite being a brand new car, they were all very competitive.


Quote:
I agree with Chris. I just want to race. If you need help getting your car sorted, I'll actually volunteer to spend a day with you in your car. We can plan to look over your car the day before the race weekend and then work on development the following day. Since I know very little bout the older GM stuff, you may need to send me the bumpsteer curves, camber curves, damper plots, spring rates, and bar dimensions so I can get an initial baseline of the car. It would be good to know what your wheel rates are and where your damping is with rspect to those. We'll need corner weights too...

Thanks

I feel another clink coming....those damn three letters are being discussed.........again. It has all been said, and numerous times by both sides of the fence. As Chris said, "no crying when the rules come out" .

Edit : and yet there is still more (see bold)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:54 pm 
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Hope everyone is happy with rules changes and now we can get to racing.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Red Tornado wrote:
Hope everyone is happy with rules changes and now we can get to racing.


No were(I am) not!

Let's put it back to 07 rules and go racing. You don't want to spend money($300) to remove stuff, but your asking me to develope and ABS system to compete with Ford racing R&D. Seems really fair to me. And you!

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