nasaforums.com

Official Forums of the National Auto Sport Association
It is currently Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:04 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 10:49 pm 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
UBR wrote:
blackbolt9 wrote:
Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

Per the CMC rules:
"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.
7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.
7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."


And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

j


And my point is, Anders had to go through more effort to conform to the rules just because they don't allow ABS. My assumption is he simply ran lines from one circuit of the master through a prop valve to the rear brakes and the other circuit to the front brakes. If that's true, he has to SPEND money to conform to those rules that are supposed to KEEP COSTS DOWN by buying a proportioning valve and new brake lines instead of leaving the stock parts in the car. Then he has to tweak and play with his new system to make it work well, when he could have just went out and drove the car with the stock system.

I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 5:27 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:14 pm
Posts: 383
Location: St Louis
blackbolt9 wrote:
I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.


I guess it would only make sense if it were against the rules as in CMC, so it seems settled it can be removed with reasonable effort, there is really no way to make the series equitable by allowing it due to difference in OEM parts so it should just be eliminated from the series. Wow who would have guessed it was that simple. Great let's move on, seems like everyone is in agreement that was simple.

Now we will just have to see what the rules actually say :)

_________________
Mark Adams
Team UBR #75 AI
Team UBR #76 AI (or what ever)


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Nov 18, 2011 8:10 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:22 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: Crown Point IN
blackbolt9 wrote:
UBR wrote:
blackbolt9 wrote:
Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

Per the CMC rules:
"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.
7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.
7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."


And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

j


And my point is, Anders had to go through more effort to conform to the rules just because they don't allow ABS. My assumption is he simply ran lines from one circuit of the master through a prop valve to the rear brakes and the other circuit to the front brakes. If that's true, he has to SPEND money to conform to those rules that are supposed to KEEP COSTS DOWN by buying a proportioning valve and new brake lines instead of leaving the stock parts in the car. Then he has to tweak and play with his new system to make it work well, when he could have just went out and drove the car with the stock system.

I have never said you have to have ABS on the S197, I've said it doesn't make sense not to have it.


I try like hell to stay away !
1) When you reference the difficulty of removing ABS and the fact that the car came with FR ABS, you are talking about a purpose built factory pro race car, not a production line OEM car. If racers want to buy pro race cars, they should have to remove illegal parts, just like it has always been done in the past. For some reason, special rules have been instituted for special cars. FYI the OEM system is not the main issue.

2) As it has been pointed out, a majority of new cars (just like nearly all) are assembled from scratch, so as Jim pointed out, its a matter of not installing a part in most cases. Hundreds of parts come off a produciton car, and many systems are changed or modified. This is a builders class. How many hours go into any build? Another couple hours is not going to brake(sp) the bank. We all have done it. It's part of building a race car. So instead of $50k, a new car without ABS may cost $51k. Sell the system and recoup the money. Same goes for the trans, but I digress....even further :lol:

3) It's not that difficult to leave the system off. Other AI platforms perform hours and cubic dollars of mods to get there cars both legal and competitive. Why not the new cars?

4) CMC guys have done it with relative ease, and so has Rehagen, along with 13" brakes. OMG how did they ever figure out how to make it work?? :shock: It must of taken thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours.......NOT

_________________
Dave Algozine
#12 CMC Midwest


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 5:41 am 
Offline
Forum Hot Lapper
Forum Hot Lapper

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2010 2:15 pm
Posts: 145
[/quote]I try like hell to stay away ! ( I understand that feeling Dave)
1) When you reference the difficulty of removing ABS and the fact that the car came with FR ABS, you are talking about a purpose built factory pro race car, (an incorrect assumption on your part) not a production line OEM car (true). If racers want to buy pro race cars, they should have to remove illegal parts, (unless they fall into the current ruleset) just like it has always been done in the past. For some reason, special rules have been instituted for special cars, so lets penalize those that came in after the rule change or those that had nothing to do with them, they are all rich anyway. FYI the OEM system is not the main issue.

2) As it has been pointed out, a majority of new cars (just like nearly all cars in the class) are assembled from scratch, so as Jim pointed out, its a matter of not installing a part in most cases. Hundreds of parts come off a produciton car, and many systems are changed or modified. This is a builders class. How many hours go into any build? Another couple hours is not going to brake(sp) the bank. We all have done it. It's part of building a race car. So instead of $50k, a new car without ABS may cost $51k. (Thats a bargain) Sell the system (to who Dave?) and recoup the money. Same goes for the trans, but I digress....even further :lol:

3) It's not that difficult to leave the system off (after your car is already built per the rules). Other AI platforms perform hours and cubic dollars of mods to get there cars both legal and competitive. Why not the new cars? (So, its not cheap like TJ said?) :?:

4) CMC guys have done it with relative ease, and we should be just like CMC, and so has Rehagen, along with 13" brakes( lets shoot for 10 or 12 inch Dave). OMG how did they ever figure out how to make it work?? :shock: It must of taken thousands of dollars and hundreds of man hours.......NOT[/quote]

Why dont we just go back to the 2002 Rules, chissel them in granite tablets and never change :D

:lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:22 pm 
Offline
Forum Hot Lapper
Forum Hot Lapper
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:56 pm
Posts: 138
I believe Anders had a stock brake package before he bought the new setup from Dean.

There are more than one s197 that runs in CMC so it must not be that hard to disable the ABS and still make the brakes work

whats another 50 bucks for new lines and a prop valve when people are spending 50 grand on a car to begin with. typically people upgrade calipers to begin with so no added expence. and as for the booster.. im not sure you would have to change it.

and i am not 100% sure why Blackbolt is making such a big deal about this.. if he works for dean.. then he would get customers to pay him to remove the ABS systems. or upgrade to better ABS.. Job security.. or volunteer security. :shock:

_________________
CMC 2 #99
Great Lakes Region


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:42 pm 
Offline
Forum Hot Lapper
Forum Hot Lapper
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:56 pm
Posts: 138
oh yeah.. Robin Brunett had a s197 with a carborated 351.. hopefully everyone still remembers what those things are..

i dont believe he had ABS

AND

He won A/I championships

s197s are good cars, so people typically want the best of the best when it comes to racing. so if something is winning.. people tend to buy those cars over others.

_________________
CMC 2 #99
Great Lakes Region


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:26 pm 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
bluebandit wrote:
I believe Anders had a stock brake package before he bought the new setup from Dean.


To my knowledge that is correct.

bluebandit wrote:
There are more than one s197 that runs in CMC so it must not be that hard to disable the ABS and still make the brakes work


To my knowledge the ABS isn't disabled, it is completely removed in order to get a properly working system.

bluebandit wrote:
whats another 50 bucks for new lines and a prop valve when people are spending 50 grand on a car to begin with. typically people upgrade calipers to begin with so no added expence. and as for the booster.. im not sure you would have to change it.


You don't HAVE to upgrade calipers. You don't HAVE to upgrade the booster. You don't HAVE to upgrade the master cylinder. You don't HAVE to do alot of things to have brakes that will slow a car down reasonably well. But if you want maximum performance from everything working together properly, you probably SHOULD change alot of those things.

bluebandit wrote:
and i am not 100% sure why Blackbolt is making such a big deal about this.. if he works for dean.. then he would get customers to pay him to remove the ABS systems. or upgrade to better ABS.. Job security.. or volunteer security. :shock:


I'm giving information that I have, to people that it isn't readily available to. Just because that disagrees with others opinions doesn't mean I'm "making a bid deal" about it. I'm just giving a factual side of the story. I only continue to agrue it because no one has provided any proof that the information I'm giving is incorrect. If someone wants to provide solid evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and move along.

Just because I'm friends with Dean and work/volunteer/whatever for his business doesn't mean I can't have an outside opinion? I'm not looking to make Dean or Rehagen more money by agreeing to a rule to give him or anyone else more work. Believe it or not, I'm thinking of myself and what I would want if I was building my own car. Would I want to throw away the stock parts that came on my car that work perfectly fine? Or would I want to spend more money on replacing stuff because other people don't want to use what comes on their car from the factory? And FWIW I have a Fox body that I would love to build and race in AI, I just don't have the money at this point in my life because of other choices I have made.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 5:45 am 
Offline
Forum Hot Lapper
Forum Hot Lapper
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:56 pm
Posts: 138
blackbolt9 wrote:
I only continue to agrue it because no one has provided any proof that the information I'm giving is incorrect. If someone wants to provide solid evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and move along.



They don't have to. They can change a rule for any reason they want to. they typically try and change it for the better but every now and then someone gets rubbed the wrong way.

Don't feel too bad about ABS... come run CMC with a s197 and you have no abs and smaller than stock tires.. 235s, that rule was made with no posted data either. I am sure its out there somewhere but at least NASA is trying to make the different platforms equal?

btw.. your fox body would fit nicely in CMC!

_________________
CMC 2 #99
Great Lakes Region


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 6:54 am 
Offline
Postmeister General
Postmeister General

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 6:36 pm
Posts: 2143
Location: Charlotte, NC
Ahh the ongoing debate continues...

Ok I didn't upgrade at all on my stock GT abs so thats what I have in mine. I don't see anyone doing wild braking advantages with super racing abs but would love to compare.

Oh and all of this is likely totally thrown in air again by returning to toyo's.

I bet on toyo's you will see same track times we saw at nationals 3 -5 years ago. High 35's and low 36's for top 3-5 guys.

We only ran low 34's on hoosiers so 2 seconds for tires (i tested on my old car) and low 36's it is.

Who wants to bet??

_________________
2012 Boss 302s.#37
"Move out of the way racing smurf is coming thru.."


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 7:38 am 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
bluebandit wrote:
blackbolt9 wrote:
I only continue to agrue it because no one has provided any proof that the information I'm giving is incorrect. If someone wants to provide solid evidence that I'm wrong, I'll admit I'm wrong and move along.



They don't have to. They can change a rule for any reason they want to. they typically try and change it for the better but every now and then someone gets rubbed the wrong way.

Don't feel too bad about ABS... come run CMC with a s197 and you have no abs and smaller than stock tires.. 235s, that rule was made with no posted data either. I am sure its out there somewhere but at least NASA is trying to make the different platforms equal?

btw.. your fox body would fit nicely in CMC!


I'm honestly not looking for proof from the rule makers. They make their rules based on the best evidence they have available to them, and have to make decisions based on more than just imperical data to try and keep everyone happy. I rather want to see it from the people that are blindly complaining with nothing to back it up.

I don't feel bad about ABS at all. I'd still build my Fox body to run AI, IF I had the money. I already know what combination I want to try and make work. But I don't have an extra $20-30,000 sitting around right now for various reasons, one of which being the current housing market. I honestly think I could build an AI competitive Fox platform, the real problem would be proving it since I know without a doubt I am not a good enough driver to hang with those guys that are finishing up front, no matter how many "super awesome trick parts" I could come up with.

Red Tornado wrote:
Oh and all of this is likely totally thrown in air again by returning to toyo's.

Who wants to bet??


I'm definitely not betting against you on that part.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group