nasaforums.com

Official Forums of the National Auto Sport Association
It is currently Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:17 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 7:49 am 
Offline
Forum Time Trialer
Forum Time Trialer

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:38 pm
Posts: 274
Location: Lincoln, Kansas
firehawkclone wrote:
blackbolt9 wrote:
firehawkclone wrote:
Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.


So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them :roll:


Who are you really? Do you even race AI?



He doesnt race AI but he does crew for Rehagen Racing. Hope that helps.

_________________
Anthony Dail AI #28
NASA Central Region
MIDCONTINENT MUSTANGS
Got brake cooling? mpp97sst@hotmail.com


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:21 am 
Offline
Postmeister
Postmeister

Joined: Wed Jun 18, 2003 1:22 pm
Posts: 1200
Location: Crown Point IN
blackbolt9 wrote:
D Algozine wrote:
Not my idea to use National podiums as a gauge. I like to use physics and in car data.


Really because I've yet to see you post any calculations or data from independent cars that you are comparing to use in your continuous complaining.


Ask your boss for the data, I'm sure he can help you out. Or ask NASA to post the results from Nationals. Watch the in car video of various racers at Nationals and compare.
Can we just get over this BS. It's been documented, a purpose built race ABS can without a doubt modulate at threshold better then a human. It also, allows threshold braking better in uneven sufaces, slippery surfaces (rain), off camber, while turning into the apex. Call Ford, FI, NASACAR, Grand Am and any other pro santioning body. Ask any pro race car builder, ask anyone using the system who is skilled enough to take full advantage of it.... the list is endless. Please don't tell me that you want to continue and agrrue otherwise. It's simply a fact. The guys who know this better then anyone are the Ford engineers that desigend it. Some are on this board, some where instrumental in getting it approved, some Ford Engineers race in AI, but then you should know that. Why did they lobby so hard to get it approved? Ask those indiduals why they designed it? Ask Jeff Feit or Mark Wilson, or Dean Martin, I'm sure there are others. What were the parameters, what were the goals, what where the results. I'm sure the lastest version is better then the last? Jeez to you think so.....? Again, if it sucks and doesn't help then losing it, is of no consequence. Can we just talk about how to get back to parity. I may be a loud mouth, but do you realize how silly some of you guys sound trying to agrue that this system really doesn't matter.

_________________
Dave Algozine
#12 CMC Midwest


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 9:04 am 
Offline
Forum Time Trialer
Forum Time Trialer

Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 8:49 am
Posts: 183
Kind of a highjack here but,

Does anybody know how the brake system is on the Caddy CTS-V? I recall racing against them in T2 and even at 4000# they stopped pretty well..

_________________
Brett Mars
#88 ST2
Mustang Boss 302S
Toyo's Suck!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:34 pm 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
firehawkclone wrote:
blackbolt9 wrote:
firehawkclone wrote:
Look at my times from 2010 nationals. I did ok and out braked most except for two pro cars. No GM car finished on the podium any year of nationals.


So you admit you could stop faster than all but 2 cars? I know there were alot more than (2) S197 Mustangs at the 2010 nationals. And yet we still have complaints about the ABS systems in them being the uber game changer that keeps the rest of the field behind them :roll:


Who are you really? Do you even race AI?


I am not a race car driver if that's what you are looking for.

I am a volunteer mechanic for Rehagen Racing, as has already been stated. Don't know what that has to do with the discussion though.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Wed Nov 16, 2011 8:46 pm 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
D Algozine wrote:
Ask your boss for the data, I'm sure he can help you out. Or ask NASA to post the results from Nationals. Watch the in car video of various racers at Nationals and compare.
Can we just get over this BS. It's been documented, a purpose built race ABS can without a doubt modulate at threshold better then a human. It also, allows threshold braking better in uneven sufaces, slippery surfaces (rain), off camber, while turning into the apex. Call Ford, FI, NASACAR, Grand Am and any other pro santioning body. Ask any pro race car builder, ask anyone using the system who is skilled enough to take full advantage of it.... the list is endless. Please don't tell me that you want to continue and agrrue otherwise. It's simply a fact. The guys who know this better then anyone are the Ford engineers that desigend it. Some are on this board, some where instrumental in getting it approved, some Ford Engineers race in AI, but then you should know that. Why did they lobby so hard to get it approved? Ask those indiduals why they designed it? Ask Jeff Feit or Mark Wilson, or Dean Martin, I'm sure there are others. What were the parameters, what were the goals, what where the results. I'm sure the lastest version is better then the last? Jeez to you think so.....? Again, if it sucks and doesn't help then losing it, is of no consequence. Can we just talk about how to get back to parity. I may be a loud mouth, but do you realize how silly some of you guys sound trying to agrue that this system really doesn't matter.


Where has there been any documented comparison between the S197 and the other factory systems that are available? I honestly have not seen them. Can I get data from Dean to look at from a S197, sure, probably anytime I want from any of our cars I want. But that doesn't give me anything to compare to. You say you want data and physics involved, well where is a race prepared Camaro with OEM ABS installed to compare to? I'd be all for doing the testing and comparing the data. Haven't seen that done or even proposed. You guys just keep bitching about how it isn't fair, when we haven't even established that GM factory ABS is sub-standard. You just don't want to install factory GM ABS on your car with the presumption that their factory ABS can't even come close to the S197 system with the FR control module. If Feit or Wilson have that data, then I am unaware of it as well.

As posted in another thread, losing the ABS system in the S197, IS NOT as simple as unplugging the unit or just running some new lines. You would AT THE BARE MINIMUM need to change the master cylinder, calipers and hand make lines and add a prop valve to make it work even remotely well. Most likely you would need to change the booster and the pedal box as well. So then you get into playing with the throttle pedal, yeah that sounds like fun with the new throttle by wire in the Coyote engines. None of this is a cost effective solution for the S197 since the factory pieces work fine. And we still haven't gotten into reliability between aftermarket non-ABS pieces to make everything work vs. the OEM pieces that have very strict quality controls in place. Let alone the fact that about half these cars are built from street cars which means you are asking half the guys to throw away perfectly good parts that will work on their car just because you don't want them to have ABS.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:09 am 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 452
Location: Outside STL
blackbolt9 wrote:
losing the ABS system in the S197, IS NOT as simple as unplugging the unit or just running some new lines.

You're right... It isn't just unplugging a fuse the way it used to be.

But, it also isn't rocket science. Our Fox has nothing from the original brakes. Big deal. That's part of building a race car.

It goes back to the decisions made when building, buying or modifying. I have built race cars for 35 years. The decisions usually come down to a cost/benefit. If the part has no benefit... Get rid of it. If a new or different part has a benefit, you do it.

I doubt any of us run stock shocks/struts, springs or many other parts. It cost money to replace them, but there is a benefit (percieved or real). ABS and/or OEM braking systems fall into the same decision process. There is a perceived benefit to using the system as is or there wouldn't be so many posts about allowing it and there wouldn't be so many posts like this, fighting to keep it. Or using arguements like 'it cost too much to remove/replace'.

These are race cars... Rarely is cost a factor if there is clear advantage to doing it.

j

_________________
Jim-
Team UBR
AI- Mustang #75
AI- Mustang #76
SM- Miata #7.7
http://www.facebook.com/TeamUBR


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:50 am 
Offline
Forum Hot Lapper
Forum Hot Lapper

Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:58 pm
Posts: 130
blackbolt9 wrote:

As posted in another thread, losing the ABS system in the S197, IS NOT as simple as unplugging the unit or just running some new lines. You would AT THE BARE MINIMUM need to change the master cylinder, calipers and hand make lines and add a prop valve to make it work even remotely well.


Huh, tell that to the guy who won the CMC2 championship. He drove the car home. If he could figure it out, I am sure any race shop can figure it out. If the ABS system is doing THAT much to operate the brakes in those cars, it is clearly light years ahead of the ABS in the current crop of 10 year old AI cars that still used V6 versions of brake parts and master cylinders and now running 4 or 6 piston brake setups.

As for PROVING the 99 Camaro SS ABS is inferior to the FR500 Race ABS...that doesn't need testing. HOW MUCH inferior it is does need data...and it's all been collected on cars at Miller in 2009 and 2010. SN95, SN99, FR500 and Camaro. that data also shows the advantages of the race trans allowance and even the difference between the RA1 and the R888. NASA's race director for those races has that info... All those cars at those events were the best in the country and brought their A-games. Best test environment you could ask for....where is THAT data? If it's gone...that is sad.

_________________
ST2 #718
2009 NASA TX AIX Champion
2007 NASA TX AI ROTY
www.rpmschool.net


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:21 pm 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
UBR wrote:
These are race cars... Rarely is cost a factor if there is clear advantage to doing it.

j


Exactly my point. There is no advantage to taking off the stock brake system. Which makes it stupid to spend more money to get rid of the stock ABS. Which is why it was argued to make the stock system legal. The FR brake module muddied those waters unfortunately, which is why we are where we're at.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 7:32 pm 
Offline
Forum Spectator
Forum Spectator

Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 12:10 am
Posts: 22
rpoz27 wrote:
Huh, tell that to the guy who won the CMC2 championship. He drove the car home. If he could figure it out, I am sure any race shop can figure it out. If the ABS system is doing THAT much to operate the brakes in those cars, it is clearly light years ahead of the ABS in the current crop of 10 year old AI cars that still used V6 versions of brake parts and master cylinders and now running 4 or 6 piston brake setups.

As for PROVING the 99 Camaro SS ABS is inferior to the FR500 Race ABS...that doesn't need testing. HOW MUCH inferior it is does need data...and it's all been collected on cars at Miller in 2009 and 2010. SN95, SN99, FR500 and Camaro. that data also shows the advantages of the race trans allowance and even the difference between the RA1 and the R888. NASA's race director for those races has that info... All those cars at those events were the best in the country and brought their A-games. Best test environment you could ask for....where is THAT data? If it's gone...that is sad.


Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

The ABS system in the newer cars is what does the front to rear proportioning, if I'm understanding what I've been told correctly. So yes, it does do more than previous systems. I don't know if that's really considered "light years ahead" or not but it does make a substantial difference when you decide not to use it compared to the older systems.

I have no idea where that data is at. I would completely agree that it would be sad if it just disappeared. I would assume that data was looked at and used to come up with the 2010 & 2011 rules which means it should have changed the ABS rule before now, but we all know where assuming gets you.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2011 8:06 pm 
Offline
Forum Racer
Forum Racer

Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2008 3:50 pm
Posts: 452
Location: Outside STL
blackbolt9 wrote:
Huh, where did Anders get those brakes?

Not sure where he got them but the point is, abs is not allowed in CMC.

If the brake system is totally integrated in the new cars, the only way for Anders to disable the abs would have been to replace the entire system with factory production parts from an older Mustang.

Per the CMC rules:
"7.32.2 The brake master cylinder and brake booster must be OEM stock and unmodified. Any year SVO Mustang master cylinders/boosters are allowed for Early Ford cars.
7.32.3 A brake-proportioning valve may be used provided that it is an inline, pressure-limiting type.
7.32.7 Antilock braking systems (ABS) are prohibited. OEM stock ABS systems must be removed or disabled by unplugging the wiring harness from the ABS actuator unit."


And this is a class that is supposed to keep costs down and maintain the "stock" level of performance.

j

_________________
Jim-
Team UBR
AI- Mustang #75
AI- Mustang #76
SM- Miata #7.7
http://www.facebook.com/TeamUBR


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 145 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15  Next

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group