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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:05 pm 
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Perfect, makes sense even with my limited knowledge. So let's limit the rule to just these types of turbos, the exact size and type, not all turbos. Basically a rule just for AJ's car.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 5:13 pm 
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AJ Hartman wrote:
Added to your comments in red Mark.

T&A Racing wrote:
Here are my additional comments on proposed rules:


RCR-AI-100716a log max throttle angle via ecu for compliance dyno

No way to enforce this or to easily determine without hooking a laptop up to ECU, again who cares dyno the car if it's over DQ Dynos are not always at the track. On top of that, this would deter the ability to tune by gears

RCR-AI-100716b update language to include 'air filter tape not permitted as restrictor

Again, who cares if it falls off then dyno the car if it's over DQ.Again, dynos are not always at the track. Its to easy to manipulate the amount of tape, etc. I'm torn on this one tho as it would have been an easy way for me to be legal at nationals, and it is about as cheap of an option as you can get.

RCR-AI-102216 allow spare tire well to be removed

No value or reason to allow this, already allowed if adding a fuel cell. agreed


We have no issues at our regional races, the differences only show up at the larger events where we typically have a dyno. I wouldn't even know how to produce or read the angle of the throttle from the ecu. This is a huge turn off, even at notational for TT, I was going to run Tt2 or Tt3 but the runs about all the edu stuff just wasn't worth it. Not because I planned on cheating but is just not practical.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:14 am 
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I don't have anything productive to add other than that I am for the RCR that taping the air filter is not a legal means of restricting.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 5:42 am 
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In regards to the RCR dyno 3000rpm change request here are my thoughts: First, I do not want to make rules for particular people, rules need to fit the masses if needed, be reasonable and enforceable. AI has always been about peak hp and peak tq. For better or worse that's how we have rolled since the birth of AI. No need to reinvent the wheel. The dyno procedure states start 2000 and go to beyond max hp. So in order to see max tq and hp the dyno has to be run in a manner to show less hp/tq then peak than less. NA cars are not a problem, just recently turbo which make mx tq very low possibly below 2000 are the issue. So we have the spike issue along with the issue that we do not know true peak tq unless dyno is started well below peak tq. I have looked over my carbed 302 and other nasa official dynos, a good 20 or 30 of them, a good portion of them have some sort of starting spike as well as ending spikes. Why or what the spikes are is not exactly known nor do we truly need to know. Never been an issue because engine made significantly less power at the spikes than peak. So the issue for me is starting the dyno below peak tq, 2000rpm isn't below peak tq on this particular turbo car and rules don't state this. So I propose:

current rule:
10. Three consecutive runs shall be made under full power. The RPM range shall be consistent for all three runs. Starting RPM shall be no higher than 2000. Ending RPM shall be clearly beyond max horsepower.

proposed rule:
10. Three consecutive runs shall be made under full power. The RPM range shall be consistent for all three runs. Starting RPM shall be clearly below max torque and no higher than 2000. Ending RPM shall be clearly beyond max horsepower.

This should force the dyno run to be started were torque is low and the spike should be negligible on any car NA or Turbo.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 11:55 am 
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Here's my $.02 as a SI Competitor:

RCR-SI-100616 open tuning
Agree. The #1 reason for this is that it is currently unenforceable, and that is reason enough. #2 is that there are cars (like the one I'm driving) that don't even make the numbers for the 3350 min weight for power or torque. I'm sure that could be picked up via a tune; any other options would be cost prohibitive like trying another engine.

RCR-SI-102116 change tq ratio from 11.25:1 to 11:1
Disagree. This just makes cars that can't make minimum weight even further away. Opening up tuning will help you get both numbers spot on if that is what you are after.

RCR-all-102016a update rulebook with contact info for acquiring windshield banner ai,aix,si
Great.

RCR-all-102116a seal computer, ecu, obdii, elect ports, SI/AI.
Disagree. Pointless. Look at a wiring diagram for these cars. The wires needed to do a reflash run all over the car, to various different modules, and through a number of intermediate connectors between the ports and the modules. This will not stop anyone from doing anything.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 12:22 pm 
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And here's my $.02 on some of the AI RCR's as a former AI competitor and legendary AI troublemaker:

RCR-AI-093016 dyno procedure change - ignore power below 3000, turbo cars make high/max tq very low, 2000rpm or so and this is not in the typical rpm range seen on track.
Having spent 4 years tuning and working on the turbo Subaru WRX STi's in Grand Am GS (and struggling to meet Grand Am's stringent, constantly monitored requirements), I can tell you that this problem is FAR more complicated then it's being portrayed. It's not a simple control system resonance. It's not a dyno-only event. It's not a low-rpm only event. It's not just dependent on how you tip in. It's not easy to control, and it's very easy to make it act differently in dyno vs. track conditions. I don't want to see turbo cars outlawed, but it's going to take more than a simple RPM clip to properly police it.

RCR-AI-100616d clarify track width language to include 'tire buldge'
It's pretty clear how it is to be measured. Is it possible to measure it using that method and not include tire bulge?

RCR-AI-100716a log max throttle angle via ecu for compliance dyno
Pointless. You'd have to monitor the entire throttle angle vs. RPM curve (yeah, it isn't a fixed value) and you could easily get around it by changing the TPS calibrations.

RCR-AI-102716 change eligible years to 1960-2014, exclude 2015 up
Seems like a good way to sentence your class to a slow death. The 2005+ Mustang was supposed to make every other AI car obsolete. It didn't and neither will the 2015.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 1:24 pm 
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Jeff F wrote:
RCR-all-102116a seal computer, ecu, obdii, elect ports, SI/AI.
Disagree. Pointless. Look at a wiring diagram for these cars. The wires needed to do a reflash run all over the car, to various different modules, and through a number of intermediate connectors between the ports and the modules. This will not stop anyone from doing anything.


Yeah, the lack of creativity from the perspective of a cheater's mind when people come up with these rules is kind of a bummer. Funny story from way back in the start of computer controlled cars (I don't know the series): In order to check the programming on the computer, you had to remove it from the car and hook it up to some machine. After tech was done and fully passed, the driver got back in the car and drove it back to the pits. Unfortunately, his computer was still in the machine. The computer in the stock position, hooked up to the stock looking wiring wasn't the computer controlling the car...

Richard P.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 28, 2016 6:37 am 
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RichardP wrote:
Jeff F wrote:
RCR-all-102116a seal computer, ecu, obdii, elect ports, SI/AI.
Disagree. Pointless. Look at a wiring diagram for these cars. The wires needed to do a reflash run all over the car, to various different modules, and through a number of intermediate connectors between the ports and the modules. This will not stop anyone from doing anything.


Yeah, the lack of creativity from the perspective of a cheater's mind when people come up with these rules is kind of a bummer. Funny story from way back in the start of computer controlled cars (I don't know the series): In order to check the programming on the computer, you had to remove it from the car and hook it up to some machine. After tech was done and fully passed, the driver got back in the car and drove it back to the pits. Unfortunately, his computer was still in the machine. The computer in the stock position, hooked up to the stock looking wiring wasn't the computer controlling the car...

Richard P.

:lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:07 pm 
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RichardP wrote:
Yeah, the lack of creativity from the perspective of a cheater's mind when people come up with these rules is kind of a bummer. Funny story from way back in the start of computer controlled cars (I don't know the series): In order to check the programming on the computer, you had to remove it from the car and hook it up to some machine. After tech was done and fully passed, the driver got back in the car and drove it back to the pits. Unfortunately, his computer was still in the machine. The computer in the stock position, hooked up to the stock looking wiring wasn't the computer controlling the car...

Richard P.


That sure sounds like someone took liberties with the old Smokey Yunick "drove away with the gas tank still on the tech's bench" story. I dig it. :D

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 17, 2016 11:25 am 
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The value of removing the spare tire well without installing a fuel cell would be all aero by allowing you to build a decent rear diffuser in cars with saddle tanks like the S197. You could still do it per the rules as is but would have to buy an expensive wedge shaped fuel cell and then perform quite a bit of fab. This rule would make rear diffusers cheaper to install for those cars.


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