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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:13 pm 
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Dover wrote:


I don't think it needs to be this complicated. I plugged the four numbers from my peaky power curve into the Trapezoid Rule (average of the right sum and left sum / very little error) and came with 0.1% of the arithmetic mean of the 4 points. Try the same with your actual numbers and see what you get. I think you'll find that the "add 'em up and divide by 4" approach is close enough for government work.


So by playing with my redline, I can make the 4 points describe a midpoint or right rule. What this allows me is the ability to create different average horsepowers I could report with the exact same dyno graph. The 500rpm leeway lets me create an average curve 10hp lower than my current one, and all I had to do was drop my revs 100. Cars with torque like mine can play these games but a honda could not. They are stuck with Left rule. I don't think people want me to show up with 10 more horsepower and the same sticker.

For a honda the difference between the theoretical "flat" curve and their average sloped curve is more like 5 hp. So I just described a potential mathematical slop of 15hp(171lbs) for a honda vs a larger displacement or FI car that has the freedom to choose and build the best power curve. 171lbs. No, I don't agree the system is accurate enough.

6 points is not going to do what people thinks it will. It will just open it up to more power games. I don't think that is the intention of class. I will reiterate that we should decrease the partition size. I mean its ST, we are already pretty used to complicated forms and calculators :).

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:27 pm 
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Forum Time Trialer
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:22 pm
Posts: 227
Location: redwood city, california
don't take it personal man.
I am happy for you that, you have a place to race that fulfills your racing needs.
Let others try to find theirs.

not sure why you even comment, maybe you could ask some questions. I am pretty sure you would learn a few things



DarkGift wrote:
esr wrote:
only reason I am considering it is for lack of a good fast spec series


Fair enough given "fast" is very subjective.

esr wrote:
I drive a 350z


Wait...what?!? Um NASA SpecZ. Please direct your energies at building up your region's SpecZ field if you want a "fast" spec series. Our local guys did that and now we have upwards of 20 entries at events and very tight racing (and we're a relatively small region). You come off as the guy who doesn't want to do any (serious) work, wants the rules written to match his personal needs and to hell with whatever is best for the growth of the class/sport, and thinks if he just shouts whatever nonsense the loudest (and most frequently), he'll get his way. Then bitches when he still gets beat at the one event he actually shows up to because clearly everyone else must be cheating. :roll:

Also could you please learn how to quote when you reply. Your posts are a PITA to read.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:49 pm 
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Come out & race a few events, see how you and your car stack up against the field before lobbying for rules changes. My dad is driving an over weight under powered Civic running mid to rear of the pack. He's a decent driver & is having lots of fun running where he is. Remember, were all "racing" for dollar store trophies and rights to talk shot & brag. Let's remember to enjoy ourselves and not take too seriously, it's a hobby after all.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 10:09 pm 
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clock wrote:
6 points is not going to do what people thinks it will. It will just open it up to more power games. I don't think that is the intention of class. I will reiterate that we should decrease the partition size. I mean its ST, we are already pretty used to complicated forms and calculators :).


As someone who has played the flat power game, I agree with this. Opening to 6 points opens up a world of possibilities for those who can easily tune their powerbands (any DBW car, any turbo car, any car with a standalone and variable valve timing). If you expand the measured power area beyond the RPM range actually used on track, the potential for powerband tweaking goes up dramatically. If I never use the 4400-490rpm range on track, but it's counted in the rules, that opens up a huge opportunity for me to artificially draw down my average power and increase my actual power.

I'll race next year no matter what, my car can easily be tweaked to fit whatever rules are decided on, but I think smaller partitions and a focus on the RPM range actually being used is a good idea. 1500rpm is too small, but 2500rpm is definitely too big - something like a 2000rpm band measured at 9 points (peak + every 250rpm on either side) might be a good middle ground.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:08 am 
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I like that idea Andrew.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:17 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:59 am
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Savington wrote:
clock wrote:
6 points is not going to do what people thinks it will. It will just open it up to more power games. I don't think that is the intention of class. I will reiterate that we should decrease the partition size. I mean its ST, we are already pretty used to complicated forms and calculators :).


As someone who has played the flat power game, I agree with this. Opening to 6 points opens up a world of possibilities for those who can easily tune their powerbands (any DBW car, any turbo car, any car with a standalone and variable valve timing). If you expand the measured power area beyond the RPM range actually used on track, the potential for powerband tweaking goes up dramatically. If I never use the 4400-490rpm range on track, but it's counted in the rules, that opens up a huge opportunity for me to artificially draw down my average power and increase my actual power.

I'll race next year no matter what, my car can easily be tweaked to fit whatever rules are decided on, but I think smaller partitions and a focus on the RPM range actually being used is a good idea. 1500rpm is too small, but 2500rpm is definitely too big - something like a 2000rpm band measured at 9 points (peak + every 250rpm on either side) might be a good middle ground.


This to me sounds like the best approach to this power issue. More points within the 2k rpm range will properly adjust the avg for those with very peaky curves. It will also help avoid the issue of having everyone have a large reduction in their avg whp for 2018. As someone with a turbo car and who had a DBW car, I promise you. You don't want to make 3k rpm the range for the avg.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:12 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 11, 2012 10:22 pm
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Location: redwood city, california
sounds like a plan!

nevertheless lets see what these sharp guys like block and daytona and a few others out there can come up with!
just brain wear, is renewable energy.
in the end Nasa will decide an we will conform
now is the time, i am sure they are listening

GrahamDowney wrote:
Come out & race a few events, see how you and your car stack up against the field before lobbying for rules changes. My dad is driving an over weight under powered Civic running mid to rear of the pack. He's a decent driver & is having lots of fun running where he is. Remember, were all "racing" for dollar store trophies and rights to talk shot & brag. Let's remember to enjoy ourselves and not take too seriously, it's a hobby after all.


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