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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:32 pm 
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Sorry guys! The answer is YES, it is happening for 2017.

The continued issues we are dealing with are not so much what happens with ST4/TT4, but what happens with the other classes (like PTC/TTC), and to not put this info out at the same time would be confusing to many ("Why do we have ST4 at 12:1, and PTC is still at 12:1?").

Remember, as in before the complaints that ST4 is not identical to ST3, that our goal is to have great racing, but start to apply some reasonable limitations that the drivers (and their budgets) are accustomed to in PTB/PTC.

BUT, here is what I'm 95% certain we are going with for 2017, and I hope that we will have the rest before the end of the month
1) ALL ST (1-4) and TT1-4 classes will use the Avg. HP calculation for Dyno tech inspections for compliance with the Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio.
2) ST4/TT4 will use the current ST Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio Formula with some modifications to the Mod Factors (like we did with ST3/TT3)
3) ST4/TT4 will have a limit of 12:1 Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio
4) ST4/TT4 will have a maximum Tire Size of 275
5) Non-DOT tires will not be permitted in ST4/TT4 (might need some exceptions for designated rain events--still being worked out)
6) DOT-approved "A" Tires will have a Modification Factor in ST4/TT4--similar to the current non-DOT Mod Factor in other ST classes.
7) No non-Production Vehicles or Modification Factor for ST4/TT4, except for pre-approved vehicles (such as Legends, Legacy's, etc.) that shall be listed in the rules. There may be some individual waivers granted by the National Director under appropriate circumstances for currently unforeseen circumstances (with appropriate Mod Factor if necessary).
8) PTB/TTB will be deleted and no longer available.
9) Aero modifications will be limited to a rear wing/spoiler, front air dam/splitter, and those modifications currently listed as okay under the OEM Aero rule in ST3.
-------------
Less certain:

10) Deletion of the OEM Aero rule in ST3 (versus addition of the OEM Aero rule for ST4)
11) The exact Mod Factor changes for ST4 (versus ST3):
11a) Possible change for sequentials/dog ring/straight cut from -0.6 to -1.0
11b) Possible new Modification Factor for windshield removal (since Non-Production not available) for ST4/TT4
11c) FWD Mod Factor changed to +0.6 (from +1.0) for ST4/TT4
11d) Deletion of all four Engine Mod Factors for ST4/TT4
11e) "A" Tire Mod Factor -0.5 for ST4/TT4
12) Deletion of Rear Engine Mod Factors for ST1-3
13) Change the limit on Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio for PTC/TTC to 14.5:1, using the ST Formula (instead of the PT Formula) and using Avg HP, but continue to use the points system for 2017 as the primary method of classing for '17.
14) Increase the current Adjusted Wt/HP Ratio for PTD/TTD to 15:1 and PTE/TTE to 17:1, using the PT Adjusted WT/HP Ratio Formula (fix a few outliers)

----------------
Additional 99% certain (added 9-22-16):
ST1 goes to 6.0:1 but using Avg HP (ST1 drivers generally struggle to get to the 5.5:1, and once we change to Avg HP, it would be even harder--looking to increase ST1 car counts)
ST2 stays at 8.0:1 but using Avg HP
ST3 stays at 10.0:1 using Avg HP


Consider this a comment period for CONSTRUCTIVE comments as we work through these issues.



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Greg Greenbaum
National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg@nasa-tt.com


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:45 pm 
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That all sounds great, I look forward to the completed draft! Thanks for getting this out Greg!

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NASA NorCal ST/SU Group Leader
Valkyrie Autosport, Ltd.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:41 pm 
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Thanks Greg! This let's us get started!! :D


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:48 pm 
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What is the theory behind having a mod factor for A- tires? From a $$$ perspective, the R7 and A7 cost exactly the same. Other than having mod factors to control costs, I don't see why this one could be in effect if we are solely basing it on costs for a competitor to run the specified class.

Other than that, everything makes sense to me. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion here.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 2:52 pm 
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Dysenpham wrote:
What is the theory behind having a mod factor for A- tires? From a $$$ perspective, the R7 and A7 cost exactly the same. Other than having mod factors to control costs, I don't see why this one could be in effect if we are solely basing it on costs for a competitor to run the specified class.

Other than that, everything makes sense to me. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion here.

Because there is no doubt that "A" Tires are faster than "R" Tires, and they do not last as long. As well, there are a limited number of "A" tire options, where "R" options and contingencies are more numerous. Furthermore, the large majority of cars in PTB/PTC use "R" tires currently, and there is no actual reason to "force" all competitors onto "A" tires.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:07 pm 
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Greg G. wrote:
Dysenpham wrote:
What is the theory behind having a mod factor for A- tires? From a $$$ perspective, the R7 and A7 cost exactly the same. Other than having mod factors to control costs, I don't see why this one could be in effect if we are solely basing it on costs for a competitor to run the specified class.

Other than that, everything makes sense to me. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion here.

Because there is no doubt that "A" Tires are faster than "R" Tires, and they do not last as long. As well, there are a limited number of "A" tire options, where "R" options and contingencies are more numerous. Furthermore, the large majority of cars in PTB/PTC use "R" tires currently, and there is no actual reason to "force" all competitors onto "A" tires.


Agreed! I think A Vs. R needs to trickle up into consideration for ST1-3 as well!

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Valkyrie Autosport, Ltd.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:22 pm 
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B Esquire wrote:
Greg G. wrote:
Dysenpham wrote:
What is the theory behind having a mod factor for A- tires? From a $$$ perspective, the R7 and A7 cost exactly the same. Other than having mod factors to control costs, I don't see why this one could be in effect if we are solely basing it on costs for a competitor to run the specified class.

Other than that, everything makes sense to me. Thanks for letting me voice my opinion here.

Because there is no doubt that "A" Tires are faster than "R" Tires, and they do not last as long. As well, there are a limited number of "A" tire options, where "R" options and contingencies are more numerous. Furthermore, the large majority of cars in PTB/PTC use "R" tires currently, and there is no actual reason to "force" all competitors onto "A" tires.


Agreed! I think A Vs. R needs to trickle up into consideration for ST1-3 as well!


How about we don't change the TT3 rules every year? Some of us already have a stock pile of A7s for TT3.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:48 pm 
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"Because there is no doubt that "A" Tires are faster than "R" Tires, and they do not last as long. As well, there are a limited number of "A" tire options, where "R" options and contingencies are more numerous. Furthermore, the large majority of cars in PTB/PTC use "R" tires currently, and there is no actual reason to "force" all competitors onto "A" tires."

Thanks for the update Greg. Regarding the tire debate, in speaking with a Hoosier engineer (via email), he mentioned that with the testing that they have done, the R7 can be as fast as the A7 as long as the tire is at the right temperature, which I imagine most people are having a hard time getting. The A7 is easier to get up to temp, but doesn't take abuse as well as the R7. There are pluses and minuses to running either tire with each having advantages based on track, temperature, setup, driving style, etc.

Will there be fender flare modifications or are they open as long as the tire size is 275 and below?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:54 pm 
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Quote:

How about we don't change the TT3 rules every year? Some of us already have a stock pile of A7s for TT3.


A's are safe in TT3 for '17, don't worry.

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National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg@nasa-tt.com


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2016 3:55 pm 
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Greg G. wrote:
11) The exact Mod Factor changes for ST4 (versus ST3):
11a) Possible change for sequentials/dog ring/straight cut from -0.6 to -1.0
11b) Possible new Modification Factor for windshield removal (since Non-Production not available) for ST4/TT4
11c) FWD Mod Factor changed to +0.6 (from +1.0) for ST4/TT4
11d) Deletion of all four Engine Mod Factors for ST4/TT4
11e) "A" Tire Mod Factor -0.5 for ST4/TT4
12) Deletion of Rear Engine Mod Factors for ST1-3


11a) I think a sequential is worth a lot more performance than a dog ring box?
11b) This is a must-have as I know of NorCal competitors currently windshield-less in PTB, and others building for ST that were planning on using the non-prod mod factor for a similar purpose, and I think ST3 power levels would be a real stretch for these competitors
11e) Some competitors switch tires depending on temperature/weather; I *assume* this will be in the ST spirit of things and taking this mod factor one could run either As or Rs and not like PT where the competitor would need to accurately declare it?

For all of the mod factor changes, can you please explain the rationale for them being different for ST4? I don't see the engine & rear engine, fwd mod factors as eliminating costs. I see the transmission one trying to keep people from spending there, but potentially hurting some folks trying to cross over from Production category cars with that other org (many of those cars would fall in ST4/5 pwr:wt).

Greg, I think this is absolutely the right direction to go and I wish ST4 (5? 6?) could fold even more classes together. The ST classes definitely make it easier for competitors to bring their cars over to NASA, be competitive and enjoy the racing. This really opens the door to more IT, Touring and Production class cars easily coming over.

For those worried about ST4/5/6 driving up costs, I am curious if anybody is seeing unobtanium GTS1 or GTS2 builds in their region? (ie. Are we solving a non-problem?)


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