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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:07 am 
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MR2 Biohazard wrote:
New guy here. I just did comp school and raced ST4 over the weekend and was a lot of fun. I am awaiting ST4 rules and class for the future and here are a few of my thoughts as a bran new guy to racing NASA and my perspective. We all want more car counts and to get that we need to see what new drivers want and need. The entire process to get a license felt overwhelming enough with all the forms, physical, more forms, paying for a license, race fees and having to buy stickers.

1- ST- I am attacked to ST for the keep it simple and straight forward approach. Dyno HP, average of 3 and I like that, Weight of the car with someone in and then just a few factors, such as tire width, etc. It is very simple. My car could fit into PTB as is with street tires, but not hoosiers, so the need for ST3-4 is there.

2- I would have raced PTB, but there is no one to race, no one, not a single car or anything and there has not been one for a long long time. The reason I went for ST3 was the simplicity, but also a car to race against until ST4 comes out. When looking at the rules and all for PT there seems to be so many little tiny things that add up it makes people not want to race. Hence the need for ST4 as I see it. Now saying that if we make ST4 and put in a bunch of other rules to limit this or that then in reality it is just a renamed PT and what the heck is the point in that. I am not interested in that.

3- ST4 should be kept the same as ST1-2-3 as it is now. The formula works so go with it. Right now you fill out the HP to Weight on the excel spreadsheet and you determine your class. Why the heck would we not just keep it simple and keep everything the same and just say ST4 is 12:1. It just makes sense. We would have 5.5, 8, 10 and 12. That seems like a perfect spread to me. Keep the tires rules the same and the rest. It works so do not change it.

4- Did I say please keep it simple. To me it should be a 3 minute rules committee conversions that would go like this.
-Person A- Hey all, we do not have really have anyone in PT anymore but those guys that used to race in that class still want to race.
- Person B- Yup, sure looks like that and what I have been hearing for a long time.
- Person A- They have been asking for ST4 and want 12:1 hp to weight and the same other rules they have now.
- Person B- Yup, sure looks like that.
- Person A- They want to race, but are not right now and car counts are down.
- Person B- Yup, they are not racing right now, but would like to be out there in a good battle.
- Person A- I put forth ST4 at 12:1 power to weight ratio and all other ST rules the same.
- Person B- Sounds very logical and reasonable.
- Person A- All approved
- all people- YES
- Person A- Now should we wait until 2017 to add this amendment to the rules and class?
- Person A- UMMMM- People want to race it now, it is super simple to just add 12:1 ratio and all other rules the same. Why in the heck we would make drivers wait more than half a race season to get a class that they are asking and begging for now? Now that just does not make sense as we should do it now.
- Person B- We should do the new class effective immediately. Put forth a vote to get the ST4 class approved now so racers can come back and race.
- all people- All approved.
- The crowd cheers in applause, flowers are thrown onto the stage, reviews come out in the New Yorks times as best meeting in the history of meetings. The world is a more peaceful place, plants are green, air is more airy, clouds or more fluffy, dogs and cats get along. The world is now a better place.

Thanks
Troy


I think there might be a chance you are over simplifying the situation :)

First, the "its working now do don't change it" mentality needs to be thought through a little more. Lets just leave alone ST1 and 2 for the sake of this conversation, since they have not changed recently, and focus on the average HP experiment in ST3. You can certainly say so far so good, but we haven't even race a full season under the current rules, with growing car counts and builds, it remains to be seen if it is 100% perfect. And my personal opinion is it isn't yet.

We have had two examples of cars either running in, or proposed to run in ST3, that are way outside the box compared to the majority of the cars built for the series. Both are tube frame purpose built cars with amazing aero, both downforce and drag, perfect geometry, sequential transmissions, etc. Lap times prove that this type of car isn't affected in the same way by the weight and tire adjustments as a sedan, and they have the potential to destroy the competition, and potentially the class.

Do you want this type of car in ST4? The class that is supposed to be cheaper and more approachable than ST3? If you don't, then time needs to be taken to analyze this type of scenario, and write a ruleset that will be successful long term. You don't want to rush a ruleset, have people build cars, then realize you've made a mistake and have to go back and make changes. That will turn way more people off than just having to wait a few months for the class to be official.

There is a fine line to be walked for ST4 to make the builds cheaper, still somewhat easy to upgrade to ST3 later, but not make things so complicated that it looses the "simple" feel of the ST rules. I appreciate the time the powers that be are taking to get this right, and I am anxiously awaiting ST4 as a place to build cheaper cars for clients.

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NASA NorCal ST/SU Group Leader
Valkyrie Autosport, Ltd.
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PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 9:31 am 
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Brian is correct. It is a big mistake to start a new class or series without taking the time to at least try and determine what the future problems may be BEFORE they become reality. It is much easier to fix a problem or change a potential rule (that hasn't been released) than to change one after competitors have built a vehicle based on the published rules. One of the benefits of having competitors (like myself) write the rules, is that we have been through (or may go through) the exact same frustration as other competitors when rules get changed, whether from one year to the next or even mid-season when we see a potential serious issue coming. So, regardless of what some may think, we don't just change rules for the sake of change, and every time we consider changing a rule, we consider how many folks that it will affect versus how many are affected if we don't change the rule. The "right" answer is not always the popular one initially, as sometimes short-term gains need to be sacrificed for the long-term success of a class/series.

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PostPosted: Sat May 28, 2016 3:43 am 
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I like the idea of ST4/TT4. I am all for simply extending ST3/TT3 to lower power/weight. (12:1 is what it looks like it would be). I think the class will do fairly decent as well. In GL region we usually have a pretty decent TT3 turn out. Last year at the June Mid Ohio we had 15 cars in TT3. I run in 3 and am pretty under powered, even with the new rules. I would fit in well into 4 with a little bit of detune, but I could run two tunes and/or add/remove weight to run either class easily on a given weekend. I can also see introducing lower power/weight "unlimited" classes, the tire mods might need tweaked a little, but probably not much else.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 1:02 pm 
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Should be seeing the first draft of the St4 rules soon yes?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:12 am 
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AZ R3 wrote:
Should be seeing the first draft of the St4 rules soon yes?


That would be great! I could actually day-dream over ST4/TT4 miata build ideas :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 11:51 am 
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Twiddling thumbs and waiting. Anything soon?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 08, 2016 6:52 pm 
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flier129 wrote:
AZ R3 wrote:
Should be seeing the first draft of the St4 rules soon yes?


That would be great! I could actually day-dream over ST4/TT4 miata build ideas :lol:


Looking forward to seeing the updated rules as this is what I have been doing. Almost ready to get my new motor in the car and will be building her in 2017. The sooner the rules are out the more I can see where I need to be focusing my budget. Greg has been very good about replying to emails and very helpful during the down time. Headed to Texas to race a Datsun at COTA in a few weeks to get my racing fix while I wait.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 18, 2016 5:09 pm 
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Poked around a little and didn't see anything - ETA on rules being released? Trying to firm up off-season plans for the car.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2016 11:33 am 
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Subscribed, for the same reason above.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 20, 2016 7:42 am 
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Same here... have a slightly wrecked car waiting on the rules release to put the real work into, to make sure I don't order "illegal" parts... Hoping to see something soon!

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