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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:18 am 
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heavychevy wrote:
More hp (especially with turbos) is detrimental regardless of drivetrain. Talladega is basically an autocross which GTR's do not do nearly as well, not to mention 800 hp being completely useless there even in the dry. Rear engine is somewhat helpful in the wet but that doesnt hardly negate the deficiences in the dry to even justify the current nonsensical penalty not to mention an additional one.

Not to mention that is ONE case scenario which was not even a race and not even NASA and a very small gap over 3 laps that could have easily gone either way, been better setup choice, or driver familiarity. One lap isn't exactly the best scenario for making performance based adjistments of any kind. The current one is already based on an anomaly from 2011 and ignores all the evidence to the contrary.


From years of being behind the wheels of 911's. It's an advantage. A larger one then most people give credit for. A 911 GT3 I autoxed for many years on 285 hoosiers puts power down MUCH better then my S2000 on 275's despite having 100 less hp and weighing a good 400 lbs less. I'd boardline say it's better then AWD as most AWD's I have raced pick up a massive push like a FWD once you go to the throttle (I understand that's due to diffs and setup, but most were bone stock, as was the 911). The 911 doesn't do that. Talladega isn't as tight as you would think. Even in the wet I ran out of 4th gear in the GT2 which is 120ish (many years ago don't remember that well).

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:33 am 
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The GT2 like the turbo tops out 4th in the mid 130's. I doubt you got that fast in the wet. And if your 911 wasn't pushing, especially on street tires, you guys found a magical setup that no one else has. The fact remains there is nothing the 911 can do or has done that can't easily be done in another chassis. Talledega is a Porsche friendly track because of its smallish wheelbase. I would bet I have even more time than you in a 911 as I run one un TT, and Ive driven several cars that are much easier to drive at the limit than mine. The 911 struggles mid corner due to the weight in the back. A quick trip through the lap records section at most tracks will show you what the fastest cars are.

There is no solid data to justify even the current penalty let alone more of one.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 8:48 am 
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heavychevy wrote:
The GT2 like the turbo tops out 4th in the mid 130's. I doubt you got that fast in the wet. And if your 911 wasn't pushing, especially on street tires, you guys found a magical setup that no one else has. The fact remains there is nothing the 911 can do or has done that can't easily be done in another chassis. Talledega is a Porsche friendly track because of its smallish wheelbase. I would bet I have even more time than you in a 911 as I run one un TT, and Ive driven several cars that are much easier to drive at the limit than mine. The 911 struggles mid corner due to the weight in the back. A quick trip through the lap records section at most tracks will show you what the fastest cars are.

There is no solid data to justify even the current penalty let alone more of one.


If you currently own and drive one your kinda bias on the argument. Sell it, Go buy something that runs against it. And then argue for it. Lets see how that goes.
I would love to own one, Having driven them. There is no replacement for Porsche's.

As for mid corner understeer...... WUT. You have the huge lump in the rear, you lift off and it rotates very nicely down to the apex for you as it swings all that weight around. Go back to the throttle and it plants the rear and exits the corner nicely. If you have the tire stagger correct you can use excessive throttle to slide the rear under power "slightly" and keep the push from happening. If you run to much rear tire it won't do that and it just pushes like crazy mid corner.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 9:15 am 
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 10:12 am 
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Mrsideways wrote:
heavychevy wrote:
The GT2 like the turbo tops out 4th in the mid 130's. I doubt you got that fast in the wet. And if your 911 wasn't pushing, especially on street tires, you guys found a magical setup that no one else has. The fact remains there is nothing the 911 can do or has done that can't easily be done in another chassis. Talledega is a Porsche friendly track because of its smallish wheelbase. I would bet I have even more time than you in a 911 as I run one un TT, and Ive driven several cars that are much easier to drive at the limit than mine. The 911 struggles mid corner due to the weight in the back. A quick trip through the lap records section at most tracks will show you what the fastest cars are.

There is no solid data to justify even the current penalty let alone more of one.


If you currently own and drive one your kinda bias on the argument. Sell it, Go buy something that runs against it. And then argue for it. Lets see how that goes.
I would love to own one, Having driven them. There is no replacement for Porsche's.

As for mid corner understeer...... WUT. You have the huge lump in the rear, you lift off and it rotates very nicely down to the apex for you as it swings all that weight around. Go back to the throttle and it plants the rear and exits the corner nicely. If you have the tire stagger correct you can use excessive throttle to slide the rear under power "slightly" and keep the push from happening. If you run to much rear tire it won't do that and it just pushes like crazy mid corner.



Funny you should mention that. I actually just started looking for a C5 after driving one 2 weekends ago. You see I have 5 TT1 lap records (Barber, Road Atlanta, Mid-Ohio, VIR and Roebling Road) in my 911 TT. I'm a hardcore 996 dude. I wrecked my car at VIR in July at the UTCC so hadn't been driving much until Chin invited me to instruct. While there, a good friend of mine asked me to drive his 427 C5 built with very similar specs (weight/hp/cage/aero) to my car. My (regional) lap record for TT1 at Road Atlanta is a 1:26.3. Here are the first 4 laps in his car...

1:36
1:33
1:31
1:30

Mind you I had never driven this car, and it was on purchased used well over a year ago old A6's that sat on the car through the cold winter. I was granny shifting, early braking, coasting, you name it. And had competitive driving on (which I hear is not the fastest). Towards the end of the day, he was persistent that I get back in the car. Still taking it easy I did the following.

1:32
1:29
1:28
1:28

The first 1:28 was a 28.2. I was significantly ahead on the next one (.7) when i actually tried to use throttle before the car was straight exiting 7 and had to make a correction blowong my exit speed. It would have been a 27.


I stayed in 4th gear from turn 12 (short shifting down the hill) to turn 6. TWO upshifts per lap. 3rd was almost unusable with the condition of the tires.

I can unequivocally say I could take that car and beat all of my lap records with a little effort and some fresh tires. It also makes me think I could take my competitors cars and hop in and beat my records as this car does not have anything fancy on it. Some of the cars I run against are built with much more on them than this one has.


Not to mention, looking at the fastest cars around the country, it's clear what's the fastest. And it's not the 911. Period. The only reason I'm not buying a C5 is because I'm a 996 fanboy and I don't trust the LS motors with hp. They just can't compare in reliability to a Mezger. However the power is instant and the torque is nasty, that part can't be duplicated in a 911. The NA motors don't produce the torque, and the turbos can't spool fast enough.

I think I could run 1:26's in that car as is with the old tires, but at Road Atlanta, on ice skates you are asking for trouble so I wouldn't even try that feat.

996's and 997's (even up to the RSR's) have inherently produce understeer. All of the factory guys complained about mid corner push and Porsche has been doing everything possible to dial it out, but it's there if you push it hard enough, or want to keep up with the Ferrari's and Corvette's mid corner.

I will admit to Porsche bias, but you would have to be plum crazy to even suggest that rear engine is the ideal engine configuration and advantageous to every other. Simple physics puts that argument to rest. Not to mention I would think that if it were such an advantage more than ONLY ONE manufacturer actually would race with it.

The evidence is quite clear......


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:06 am 
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Sooo, we should satisfy both arguments and all drive LS swapped 928's lol.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:42 am 
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Balroks wrote:
Sooo, we should satisfy both arguments and all drive LS swapped 928's lol.






It doesnt have the rear engine advantage though.....


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:00 pm 
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I'm waiting for the rear engine F1 car to be invented, and dominate :lol: .
Those guys must not be very smart.

I don't love the rule change, but it does make more sense in ST3 than elsewhere - trying to cater to the import crowd. I'm glad to see ST1/2 are left alone. If this sees big increases in participation, then it was the right choice. If not, not so much. We shall see.

I will stay in ST3 if I don't have to make my car into a pig, otherwise spend some $$ on weight loss and go to ST2.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 4:24 pm 
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So the whole world is stupid because they all make mid engined RWD race cars whenever possible.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 5:24 am 
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it's really hard to generalize like you guys are trying to do, but when I was racing in World Challenge 11 years ago......

on a Spec tire, a 911 Cup car gets a HUGE advantage coming out of corners, but is crazy twitchy where higher inertia cars were rock solid.

With the right setup, a front engine BMW can run circles around an AWD Audi in heavy rain. AWD alone doesn't solve all weather issues.

Lets get these rules out so we can just take them and run. I'm curious about the Aero situation. Factory Aero remaining???? I can tune to pretty much any level, but if Aero goes away I'll go up to ST2/TT2 just because faster is always more fun!!!

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