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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:38 am 
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Balroks wrote:
It's funny you guys keep harping on the 4 door as "theeeeee evoooooo!!!", ....


If you are directing that at me I think you missed my whole point. The AWD mod as it was explained to me is high due to the 4 door mod existing. So the delta of the 4 door mod + AWD mod = target mod for AWD cars. But that approach disadvantages 2 door AWD cars. So my whole point is that if there's no fundamental disadvantage of a 4 door chassis then there's no benefit to having that component in the rules. And as the class begins to grow you will have drivers intentionally build 4 door E46's etc just to take advantage of that rule. So why not get ahead of the issue before it becomes one. I personally think that at this power level AWD isn't even an advantage since lack of grip isn't really coming into play in this power range (except when it rains), but I won't bother trying to argue that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 3:54 pm 
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In this power level, yes, maybe. Your 4xe46 chassis may be very similar to the two door one. But that's rare. I'm more comparing the Evo to a 2 door EJ subi, which at the same weight would already be FAR stiffer, shorter length, wider wheelbase and better geometry and weight disto. Then - at this power level - who's got the advantage.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Man all these are valid points.

You both have great info.

Very tough!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 8:54 am 
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Rafael,

You know why we loose to guys like Andrew Kidd,
Good drivers in well-prepared cars? Because, at present
they are better than we are...this is the single biggest
factor in winning and loosing at our level. I'm
getting better all the time, and the secret to winning
and loosing for me is not more power, or more tire...
It's seat time, learning, courage, practicing starts,
Honing racecraft. That being said I'm thrilled to be
doing as well as I have been this year, and love
Racing with the great group of guys in NorCal
st4....thunderhill will be an epic battle, with 13-16
cars. Come on out, have fun, do your best. The
rules are fair, and there is always a battle pack
To race with. Peace.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 11:56 am 
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You see this I where you and all the others who read my post are wrong.
You all take it personal, my comments are not intended to make me more competitive. I started racing at age can't remember! And I am way beyond doing this to boost my ego.
I am just proud to be an American and thankfull to my adopted country and speak out of sadness to see club racing in America so deluted.
I know this is just the way we like it but can't help to think there is a better way, not for me or you but for the generations that follow. A place where close racing is developed and we make good drivers beyond spec miata.

Will see what happens!
Don't worry about me.
I will be out there since there is nothing better and I am not getting a spec miata, also spec e46 can't seem to get passed 5 cars of different lap times, and I am not a fan of those cars for personal reasons.
NASA prototype is down to 2 or 3 cars for there big west coast events and the car is funky for a 90k car.

You think that seat time is going to make you better, well my suggestions are meant to keep cost down labor and parts! That will give the average pocket guy more seat time.
The problem with club racing is that most guys want the unfair advantage because they think they can buy it. But when we can all afford the speed then there is less unfair advantage. This will chase away the big guys the ones that support the shops the same shops that make the rules. But long term it will create large club racing fields.
But that will be hard racing and that's not for everyone.

Thanks for your input.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:06 pm 
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esr wrote:
You see this I where you and all the others who read my post are wrong.
You all take it personal, my comments are not intended to make me more competitive.


You think that seat time is going to make you better, well my suggestions are meant to keep cost down labor and parts!

Thanks for your input.



You are one interesting individual... I think Roninph3 pretty much nailed it.

You started this thread off by calling out one specific person in one specific scenario in one specific race, saying that he needs to be reeled in because your big heavy Z is at a disadvantage? Then say it's not personal and not intended to make you more competitive?

Then you say your suggestion is to keep cost down? Marginally slowing down a car is going to cost MORE money because they have to go back to the dyno and re-tune, or purchase more ballast. Pretty simple concept there that seems to have flown right over your head. Keeping the rules the same keeps costs down...

Stop contradicting yourself.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 3:51 pm 
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I am not contradicting my self and please explain what you understand or mean by calling me and interesting guy!
I am giving examples from personal experience, examples that count not make believe fantasy!!
I can only speak for what I see in person or in videos.
As far as making adjustments read my post and if you don't understand English have someone read it for you, I am not trying to save cost to existing builds but I am thinking of future builds.
Please read it fully or have someone else who understands English explain it to you.
Same as what Brian said (future builds)
Long term growth.
Please read fully and analyze before commenting.



Arca_ex wrote:
esr wrote:
You see this I where you and all the others who read my post are wrong.please
You all take it personal, my comments are not intended to make me more competitive.


You think that seat time is going to make you better, well my suggestions are meant to keep cost down labor and parts!

Thanks for your input.



You are one interesting individual... I think Roninph3 pretty much nailed it.

You started this thread off by calling out one specific person in one specific scenario in one specific race, saying that he needs to be reeled in because your big heavy Z is at a disadvantage? Then say it's not personal and not intended to make you more competitive?

Then you say your suggestion is to keep cost down? Marginally slowing down a car is going to cost MORE money because they have to go back to the dyno and re-tune, or purchase more ballast. Pretty simple concept there that seems to have flown right over your head. Keeping the rules the same keeps costs down...

Stop contradicting yourself.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 8:23 am 
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I know Greg and I have been back and forth on email, but can't hurt to put it in the hat again:

Re: partial tube frame conversion

Allow in ST4 (with or without Wt:Pw penalty) a tubular/non-btm engine subframe, with requirement that OEM suspension and steering geometry remain unchanged or penalized as stated elsewhere in the rules.

Currently, modification or swap of the BTM subframe makes a car non-production, and thus can only participate in ST3 or faster. That's just peachy for V8 Miatas, but less potent swaps are left with fewer options. Other swaps can use the OEM subframe and are A-OK! I think the rules are set up this way to provide a hard, physical limitation for engine swap shenanigans outside of ST3 - similar to the limitations on modifying the transmission tunnel etc.

A specific example would be my case:

I'm running a stock K series Honda motor in my Miata, making ST average 198 whp. To hit ST4's 12:1 ratio, you're looking at a race weight of about 2400 lbs - Spec Miata territory. I'm not allowed to run ST4 due to the subframe swap issue, so instead I'm trying to hit 10:1 - a double whammy since I'm still penalized in ST3 for the subframe. Yes, I can modify the motor for more power, but I'd rather run a slower, more momentum driven class - S2000 and GTS2 cars instead of corvette, mustang, and GTS3 territory.

An Ecotec swapped Miata can make similar power pretty easily. OEM subframe stays intact, so they can run ST4. No non-production penalty. The only difference is engine geometry between manufacturers. How about a Mazda rotary swap? Turbo or supercharged Miata? - these are also good fits for ST4.

Am I alone in this? Would this open the door for unfair competition? To me it seems it would allow people to build more unique / reliable cars for ST4 instead of trying to build some sort of exotic hypercar out of their 25 year old roadster to compete with the arms race in ST3.

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Nathan - #010 ST3 Miata w/K24 swap - Texas region


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:50 pm 
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Quote:
Allow in ST4 (with or without Wt:Pw penalty) a tubular/non-btm engine subframe, with requirement that OEM suspension and steering geometry remain unchanged


And who and HOW will that be tech'd with any reasonable assurance of accuracy (not to mention differences in weight, strength, ability to place the engine in more strategic location, and/or the ability to use other parts that could not be used otherwise that provide some type of advantage, etc., etc....) It is a huge can of worms, which is why it is in ST3 and above, and takes a Mod Factor for non-Production....

History shows that someone will find a way to completely exploit this (as opposed to your intention which is just to allow more easily a different type of motor to swap). But, like I said, it is my understanding that someone is either working on a K swap kit that will use the OEM subframe, or it has already been finished.

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National TT, PT, & ST Director
Nat. Medical Director
greg@nasa-tt.com


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 8:33 am 
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Can't blame me for trying :)

Enforcement would be difficult/impossible, but then again, we're already there with current rules and enforcement means for many other components. We're not running a NASCAR style template over people's OEM-ish hard tops after all. But I do believe that someone would find a way to exploit the rule beyond its intended purpose - and it's a little harder to contain than keeping a front wing below hood level.

Thanks Greg!

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Nathan - #010 ST3 Miata w/K24 swap - Texas region


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